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Cox Engine of The Month
August-2024
balogh's
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"Cox TD09 R/C Beast of Burden featuring Kamtechnik head and DIY metallic fuel nipple"
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PAST WINNERS
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PAST WINNERS
Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Page 1 of 1
Nitro is cheaper than oil?
I am about to mix up some 35% nitro for the upcoming season. I have gotten used to the 50/50 mix for castor/synthetic in my engines, so that’s what I was going to mix up. I have a quart of SIG castor, but I need some synthetic, so I was going to get some Klotz. And maybe some Benol so I could mix up some fuel for my Fox 35s. From what I’ve read, SIG buys Klotz in the 55 gallon barrel for their fuel.
Looking online at Amazon seemed to be my best bet. But, MAN! Oil is expensive! I was thinking I’d use Klotz KL-198 for the synthetic. It’s full synthetic, but a little lower viscosity than Klotz Techniplate KL-200. Also a little more on price. It comes out to 57 cents/oz. for the -198 and 47 cents/oz. for the Techniplate. For castor the Benol comes out to 45 cents/oz. And just for fun, I looked up the medical grade castor sold by Walmart, and it sells for 46 cents per ounce.
And an ounce of nitro only costs me 39 cents! Still a lot cheaper than buying pre-mixed, but the price distribution makes me scratch my head a little.
The Mixologist Mark
Looking online at Amazon seemed to be my best bet. But, MAN! Oil is expensive! I was thinking I’d use Klotz KL-198 for the synthetic. It’s full synthetic, but a little lower viscosity than Klotz Techniplate KL-200. Also a little more on price. It comes out to 57 cents/oz. for the -198 and 47 cents/oz. for the Techniplate. For castor the Benol comes out to 45 cents/oz. And just for fun, I looked up the medical grade castor sold by Walmart, and it sells for 46 cents per ounce.
And an ounce of nitro only costs me 39 cents! Still a lot cheaper than buying pre-mixed, but the price distribution makes me scratch my head a little.
The Mixologist Mark
batjac- Diamond Member
Posts : 2361
Join date : 2013-05-22
Age : 61
Location : Broken Arrow, OK, USA
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi Mark,
Back in the 'Day',
The local (bike ride away) Hobby shop carried Cox fuel.
It was very expensive, but worth it.
(bad exchange rate and a duty on things coming into Canada)
The nice thing was,
We could buy it in Pints/Quarts. Screw top cans.
Hobby shop seemed to know how many props we would bust too...
It was the 'Medium' Power Cox fuel. (forgot what colour the cans were.)
Ran our .049s great.
At 35% Nitro, are you mixing 'Hot' Cox fuel ?
Did Cox make any fuel less than a 'Medium' ?
Used slide rules back then,
Dave
P.S. $40/gallon for 15%, three years ago here...
Back in the 'Day',
The local (bike ride away) Hobby shop carried Cox fuel.
It was very expensive, but worth it.
(bad exchange rate and a duty on things coming into Canada)
The nice thing was,
We could buy it in Pints/Quarts. Screw top cans.
Hobby shop seemed to know how many props we would bust too...
It was the 'Medium' Power Cox fuel. (forgot what colour the cans were.)
Ran our .049s great.
At 35% Nitro, are you mixing 'Hot' Cox fuel ?
Did Cox make any fuel less than a 'Medium' ?
Used slide rules back then,
Dave
P.S. $40/gallon for 15%, three years ago here...
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Ouch! California petrol prices!HalfaDave wrote:P.S. $40/gallon for 15%, three years ago here.
![lol!](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/lol.gif)
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
Posts : 5536
Join date : 2013-07-13
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi gg,
You can laugh, (and I, with you on prices...)
But around here, we cut more grass, delivered more local papers....
Just to afford that fuel,
That sweet nectar, that made our Cox engines run better...
Was worth it.
I am curious?
What was the nitro content of Cox 'Medium' fuel?
My .049s , with a splash of Benol on 15%nitro seem not the same. Still run great.
Not looking to burn out glow plugs,
Dave
You can laugh, (and I, with you on prices...)
But around here, we cut more grass, delivered more local papers....
Just to afford that fuel,
That sweet nectar, that made our Cox engines run better...
Was worth it.
I am curious?
What was the nitro content of Cox 'Medium' fuel?
My .049s , with a splash of Benol on 15%nitro seem not the same. Still run great.
Not looking to burn out glow plugs,
Dave
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hello Dave,
you can find the material composition of original COX fuels among the Instruction Sheets, under the Other Cox related Documents section, this one for instance with 10% nitro content, included:
https://dbabd7f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/nitroengine/Cox%20Glow%20Power%20Fuel.PDF?attachauth=ANoY7cpzdWaSHqNPC3YrIsB1LsibTUZiRyiQG_w0KNyDJCybxUukFna_kUjzYTmtpNKTtmxuYnCBJ3zQvZ0LroJVhf9bAHBYiLn-WS5srDKZAspGW9Ag1OkCB368QBBzS7LGfIqumISTciS6W2Moq4rmBk0ja2iBai_Mib9T1aYky8PHse6vI_9niJOCdpWLu7PZ2gssJcFaRL_GQO8XnicFFW_sLjljmy-8MJcRux1hHP_vcOJlaRA%3D&attredirects=0
I fly all COX engine sizes from 010 up to 09 in my RC planes, on my own home blended fuels, and have settled with 20% nitro and 20% all-castor for all sizes except the 010, for which I used to blend 30% nitro into the fuel.
But a recent bench run in October with not too cold air in my garage saw my 010 run happily at 27k even with only 20% nitro of the fuel I had made for its larger brothers.
you can find the material composition of original COX fuels among the Instruction Sheets, under the Other Cox related Documents section, this one for instance with 10% nitro content, included:
https://dbabd7f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/nitroengine/Cox%20Glow%20Power%20Fuel.PDF?attachauth=ANoY7cpzdWaSHqNPC3YrIsB1LsibTUZiRyiQG_w0KNyDJCybxUukFna_kUjzYTmtpNKTtmxuYnCBJ3zQvZ0LroJVhf9bAHBYiLn-WS5srDKZAspGW9Ag1OkCB368QBBzS7LGfIqumISTciS6W2Moq4rmBk0ja2iBai_Mib9T1aYky8PHse6vI_9niJOCdpWLu7PZ2gssJcFaRL_GQO8XnicFFW_sLjljmy-8MJcRux1hHP_vcOJlaRA%3D&attredirects=0
I fly all COX engine sizes from 010 up to 09 in my RC planes, on my own home blended fuels, and have settled with 20% nitro and 20% all-castor for all sizes except the 010, for which I used to blend 30% nitro into the fuel.
But a recent bench run in October with not too cold air in my garage saw my 010 run happily at 27k even with only 20% nitro of the fuel I had made for its larger brothers.
Last edited by balogh on Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total
balogh- Top Poster
Posts : 4868
Join date : 2011-11-06
Age : 65
Location : Budapest Hungary
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Oh, I think we both and others here are accustomed to hard work early on.HalfaDave wrote:Hi gg, You can laugh, (and I, with you on prices...) But around here, we cut more grass, delivered more local papers.... Just to afford that fuel, That sweet nectar, that made our Cox engines run better... Was worth it.
We moved to Hawaii when I was 12. Had a paper route when 14, was one of those ad type papers. Distribute, then ask for payment. Some would pay us. (Was different than a regular paper route type work.) After in high school, worked on poultry farms after school and weekends, 40 hours per week during summer, first in 1969 earned $1.25 US per hour. Picked eggs, filled feed hoppers, carried meat birds and old hens, removed dead chickens from cages and houses, washed feed troughs and chains, took care of brooders, vaccinated chicks, shoveled and hauled manure. (I learned to unshovel at the far end of the farm off the flat bed truck downwind instead of upwind and throw the stuff low. Semi dry chicken manure had less of a tendency to fly in your face
![Sh*t Hit The Fan](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/2110724557.gif)
![Mad](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_mad.gif)
![Laughing](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_lol.gif)
But, I could afford my own car and clothes.
I think it was 15% nitro, but it sounds like yours may have been higher.HalfaDave wrote:I am curious? What was the nitro content of Cox 'Medium' fuel?
I've been adding a pint of Castor oil to standard 15% nitro R/C fuel that already has 16% Synth oil and 2% Castor oil, giving me 25% with 10% Castor and 15% Synth. Coxes run OK with it, but my Norvel .061 doesn't run consistent with it (likes the 10% Castor 10% Synth mix). I use this mix with my other engines, McCoy .35 runs fine with it.HalfaDave wrote:My .049s , with a splash of Benol on 15% nitro seem not the same. Still run great. Not looking to burn out glow plugs, Dave
Back 40 - 50 years ago, I got used to the ashen and fragile appearance of the glow elements in Cox engine heads, after a season or couple months flying. But then, one could buy glow heads at any hobby store, and earlier at any major department store. I always carried a couple extra new ones at the field. When they popped and quit, I'd wrench off the old one, wrench on a new one. They'd get that way even on the 25% nitro stuff. For me, it was just a fact of life.
Now that Cox heads are running about $11 - $14 apiece, so you are right about watching nitro content to avoid shortening head life. But because I live where the winds are usually 15 mph or better during the day, the smaller half-A stuff are unsuitable most of the time. (We may be get 4 days a year of calm enough winds for half-A.)
Thus, CL flight is with .15's and up, RC flight is with .09's and up.
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
Posts : 5536
Join date : 2013-07-13
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Since fuel has been difficult to source in these parts over the past 6-7 years, I've been mixing my own myself. I used Powermaster exclusively for 25 years until it became problematic with shipping. I can still get it and my club members still do purchase it but the going rate with shipping from Texas to Pennsylvania equates to $47 a gallon with all factored in. I'm not doing that. The fact that your able to purchase nitro at that price would be terrific for me as that's not happening in these parts and I would be seriously stocking up on that. 1 gallon delivered to my door is $113. The local speed shop showed me a paper stating that they couldn't sell nitro in it's raw form. They can sell VP 50/50 which is nitro blended with methanol. 5 gallons of 50/50 is $200 out the door.
Given everything is out of control moneywise these days, Klotz oils have been pretty stable over the past few years. I use Klotz exclusively and always have. Buying it by the qt is not a good practice. Gallons offer a better alternative monetarily speaking and it doesn't last long.
As for Fox's, you don't need the oil percentages that everyone claims. They only need a minimum of 20% oil, I've been running them for 30+ years solely on 50/50 semi-synthetic. This includes combat, racing and stunt and NEVER seen a oil related failure. If your a die hard castor oil fanatic, use straight castor but beware that eventually, it will coke up with carbon and the engine needs to be de carbonized. This can also do more damage if not treated properly as it causes major drag and overheating. A muffler will also cause this to happen even faster.
Given everything is out of control moneywise these days, Klotz oils have been pretty stable over the past few years. I use Klotz exclusively and always have. Buying it by the qt is not a good practice. Gallons offer a better alternative monetarily speaking and it doesn't last long.
As for Fox's, you don't need the oil percentages that everyone claims. They only need a minimum of 20% oil, I've been running them for 30+ years solely on 50/50 semi-synthetic. This includes combat, racing and stunt and NEVER seen a oil related failure. If your a die hard castor oil fanatic, use straight castor but beware that eventually, it will coke up with carbon and the engine needs to be de carbonized. This can also do more damage if not treated properly as it causes major drag and overheating. A muffler will also cause this to happen even faster.
Ken Cook- Top Poster
- Posts : 5589
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi all,
The castor beans make the oil.
Grains/corn make Ethanol/Methanol.
Somehow, nitro comes from by-products...
Therefore,
Cox Engines,
Are solar powered,
Try this with your lithium battery friends,
With Respect,
Dave
The castor beans make the oil.
Grains/corn make Ethanol/Methanol.
Somehow, nitro comes from by-products...
Therefore,
Cox Engines,
Are solar powered,
Try this with your lithium battery friends,
With Respect,
Dave
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
HalfaDave wrote:Hi Mark,
Back in the 'Day',
Used slide rules back then,
Dave
Picket 1010's were the rage. Mine was lost in the moving shuffles of yesteryear. Got me through Navy schools in the 50's/60's.
rsv1cox- Top Poster
Posts : 10958
Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : West Virginia
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Ken, thanks for sharing your 30 year Fox fuel usage history and consistent successes on the 10% Castor, 10% Synth oil mix. I don't know how many times I have been told by some in forums that Foxes deserve no less than 29% all Castor oil fuel, along with the McCoys, when I mention my fuel mix in the past. It was particularly posters on Stuka Stunt and BOTR when still active, and even Stunt Hangar, RC Groups and RC Universe engine threads, and etc. I received warnings time and time again on even my 15% Synth 10% Castor mix. "You will ruin your engines, don't forget I warned you", etc.
(Interestingly as baby boomers have been passing
or dropping out of the hobby, others are going electric, I'm hearing less of that now.)
Now if one has an engine well worn that has compression loss, the varnish Castor seal can help those engines run beyond normal retirement life, or so I gather. Running Synth containing fuel can erode that seal. But then, I have one worn out Enya .15-III TV with very low compression (it fluffs when I flip it, a shot of motor oil boosts it), that once it starts, roars to life and seems to run as strong as a good one on my mix. Go figure ...
but no more.
Corn for fuel is GMO. Now, Castor too has gone GMO.
Science Daily 5-Jul-09: Castor-oil Plants Genetically Altered To Produce New Bio-lubricants
![lol!](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/lol.gif)
![Paranoid](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/221949261.gif)
![Sad](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_sad.gif)
![Tired w/ Coffee Read](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/3575555112.gif)
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
Now if one has an engine well worn that has compression loss, the varnish Castor seal can help those engines run beyond normal retirement life, or so I gather. Running Synth containing fuel can erode that seal. But then, I have one worn out Enya .15-III TV with very low compression (it fluffs when I flip it, a shot of motor oil boosts it), that once it starts, roars to life and seems to run as strong as a good one on my mix. Go figure ...
Dave, when Leroy Cox and Duke Fox were alive, our fuels were of organic goodness,HalfaDave wrote:The castor beans make the oil. Grains/corn make Ethanol/Methanol. Somehow, nitro comes from by-products...
![sunny](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_sunny.png)
![Doh!](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/874384962.gif)
![Shocked](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_eek.gif)
![Shh](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/2044066509.gif)
Science Daily 5-Jul-09: Castor-oil Plants Genetically Altered To Produce New Bio-lubricants
![lol!](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/lol.gif)
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
Posts : 5536
Join date : 2013-07-13
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi rsv1cox,
Do Not get me started on Slide Rules !
I was ~10yrs old, Man had landed on the Moon,
We were firing up Cox engines...
Even a lousy slide rule would get you 99.9% of an answer...
Estimating was the hard part....
2 X 2 = 4, not 40 or 400...
Some of the big 'adult' slide rules were a work of art, 99.999% accurate.
Most of my mistakes these days, are off by 10X or more...
Hi gg,
I agree with everything you say, 100%.
Or, 1000%, oops, 10,000%, no, 100,000%...
That is my answer...
Did I mention,
This Cox forum is awesome?
Thanks,
Dave
Do Not get me started on Slide Rules !
I was ~10yrs old, Man had landed on the Moon,
We were firing up Cox engines...
Even a lousy slide rule would get you 99.9% of an answer...
Estimating was the hard part....
2 X 2 = 4, not 40 or 400...
Some of the big 'adult' slide rules were a work of art, 99.999% accurate.
Most of my mistakes these days, are off by 10X or more...
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
Hi gg,
I agree with everything you say, 100%.
Or, 1000%, oops, 10,000%, no, 100,000%...
That is my answer...
Did I mention,
This Cox forum is awesome?
Thanks,
Dave
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Slide Rules and significant digits
One good thing about slide rules was that they effectively demonstrated the concept of significant digits which your modern calculators do not. And if my memory serves me right you can't add or subtract on a slide rule.
706jim- Gold Member
- Posts : 464
Join date : 2013-11-29
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi 706jim,
You are right. Paper and pencil were needed too.
Add and subtract was not a function slide rules had.
I hope Mark is having fun mixing up his fuel...
And we are not confusing him...
So, Cox 'Medium' fuel was around 20% nitro?
Just asking,
Dave
You are right. Paper and pencil were needed too.
Add and subtract was not a function slide rules had.
I hope Mark is having fun mixing up his fuel...
And we are not confusing him...
So, Cox 'Medium' fuel was around 20% nitro?
Just asking,
Dave
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Back in 1976, slide rules were already sliding out of vogue.
Then, I remember the large electronic basic calculators at Keller Hall, the science building at the University of Hawaii. They were the size of the older cash registers, with electric neon tubes for each digit. They fit in the 9-pin miniature tube sockets, stood up about 2.5, may be 3 inches tall, behind a plexiglass window. It had precision up to about 8 digits. One still referred to the logarithm tables for calculations. PI was posted on the calculator room walls along with other commonly used constants and equations.
I got to where I could use the slide rule as a backup, but because the Holmes Hall engineering building gave me access to various calculators and several computers, I was able to use them instead.
![lol!](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/lol.gif)
- Flashback, click here to view:
- My first calculator then around 1977 was a Texas Instruments TI-58 scientific programmable. I bought it for $104.00 at the time. I had one engineering student ask me why I didn't buy an HP calculator. Then, the HP calculators were $400.00 (I think it was the HP-27), I was a poor student subsisting on the Vietnam era GI Bill. His parents were footing all his expenses. Apparently he didn't have much of a clue how to live independently. I wanted the more powerful TI-59 that had recordable magnetic strip reader to store the programs with double the step memory, but at twice the price, was beyond my affordability. (Every time I wanted to run my custom key strokes programs required re-entering them, leave the power supply plugged in so I wouldn't lose them. Later, I bought the 4" ticker tape print cradle for $140.00 so I could paste my program as proof plus print numerical methods approximations for problem solutions. Because of the TI-58's slower computation speed, program would have to run overnight to solve some problems with many iterations.)
My father gave me his slide rule that he had, probably now a collectable being that it was the one he used in college at the start of WW2. I don't know what ever happened to it, probably was a part of one of my modeling boxes that disappeared when movers packed my household belongings for a move 30 years ago. Among the losses were some Cox and Testors engines, and a few now historic favorite kits.
He also gave me his logarithm tables book, too with it. It also disappeared.
I got to where I could use the slide rule as a backup, but because the Holmes Hall engineering building gave me access to various calculators and several computers, I was able to use them instead.
- Coniinued, click here to view:
- Then, we didn't have MS-DOS, it was the predecessor, CP/M-80, which ran in a maximum of 64 KB of memory on either an 8080, 8085 or Z80(A) 8-bit microprocessor, maximum clock rate 4 MHz. I bought a 300+ KB 5.25" hard sectored floppy disk for $10.00, to store my work on. I spent a good bit of time on the Mechanical Engineering Department's one CP/M computer when available (Vector MZ, had a graphics co-processor card for doing bit mapped and vector graphics (through their FORTRAN library calls) shared by various students who dared to learn its nuances), because I could debug my FORTRAN-IV programs faster on it than using the Hollerith card reader to the IBM 370J mainframe in Keller Hall. (Then only graduate students and research associates had time sharing terminal access to the 370J.)
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
Posts : 5536
Join date : 2013-07-13
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi gg,
I gave up on computers,
When I had to punch cards, for a machine, that took 20 minutes,
To tell me the answer... I already knew.
I hope this does not get me kicked off the internet !
With respect,
Dave
I gave up on computers,
When I had to punch cards, for a machine, that took 20 minutes,
To tell me the answer... I already knew.
I hope this does not get me kicked off the internet !
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
With respect,
Dave
HalfaDave- Platinum Member
- Posts : 613
Join date : 2022-12-06
Location : Oakville, Ontario
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Here, no.HalfaDave wrote:I gave up on computers, When I had to punch cards, for a machine, that took 20 minutes, To tell me the answer... I already knew. I hope this does not get me kicked off the internet !![]()
![RC Plane](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/1702820958.gif)
![Happy New Year](/users/3015/29/34/60/smiles/3568862115.gif)
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
Posts : 5536
Join date : 2013-07-13
Age : 70
Location : Clovis NM or NFL KC Chiefs
Re: Nitro is cheaper than oil?
Hi All,
I could mix up 20% or 25% fuel and run it fine. Especially as I'm not racing or anything. But on a day when my starter battery is getting low or the weather is just not right, where 25% might be a hard start, 35% always lights off. And, since it only costs me about a dollar more to pump up to 35% from 25% for a quart, I'll play Mr. Moneybags.
As for the Fox fuel, all my Fox .35s are used, so they already have a good varnish going. If I run the synthetic it'll flush out the goop and I don't know how they'll run. So I'll stick to around 25% castor for those. Besides, the smell Man! The smell!
The Spendthrift Mark
I could mix up 20% or 25% fuel and run it fine. Especially as I'm not racing or anything. But on a day when my starter battery is getting low or the weather is just not right, where 25% might be a hard start, 35% always lights off. And, since it only costs me about a dollar more to pump up to 35% from 25% for a quart, I'll play Mr. Moneybags.
As for the Fox fuel, all my Fox .35s are used, so they already have a good varnish going. If I run the synthetic it'll flush out the goop and I don't know how they'll run. So I'll stick to around 25% castor for those. Besides, the smell Man! The smell!
The Spendthrift Mark
batjac- Diamond Member
Posts : 2361
Join date : 2013-05-22
Age : 61
Location : Broken Arrow, OK, USA
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