Re: Bummer....

Kim Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:44 am

and this...

Here's the theory of the crash from experienced racers.

In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft imediately went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter. The pilot came to, from the sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and was looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach the throttle and pull it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.

Fast forward to 2011.

Photo one is the airplane taxiing, note the pilots head in the canopy.

Photo two is typical oil canning as a result of the tremendous torque these engines put out at high power.

Photo three is a photo of GG upside down with a missing elevator trim tab. Note all you see is the back of the pilots head indicating he is being forced down in the cockpit.

Photo four is a view of the left side (this may be photoshopped) nose down with the tail wheel extended and no view of the pilot. The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G-force causing it to extend.

Photos five and six are from the left side prior to impact, note no view of the pilot and the tail wheel extended.

Photo seven is the debris just after the crash. To the right of center above the crowd it appears to be the wing with the leading edge down.

A friend of mine was suppose to be there but didn't go and he has several friends in the hospital right now. The people were mostly hit by chunks of concrete, asphalt and aircraft debris. They were also hurt by the trampling of people getting out of the way.
--
John Schauer
B-29 Flight Engineer/Instructor/Evaluator
C-130 Flight Engineer/Instructor

GermanBeez Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:26 am

wow, we've got air crash investigation goin' on here!
about passing out from high g's:
you usually pass out temporarily, after a few seconds, you would regain conciousness.
heart attack also seems probable, but we'll probably never know.

Kim Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:39 am

in a few seconds...he was in the ground. Still speculation...........

SuperDave Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:26 am

The danger of flying low and fast can hardly be overestimated in either real or model aviation where things can happen in an instant too fast for human reaction time.

At these times come the pledges that "this will NEVER happen again"; well-intend but seldom achieved. There is an inherent danager in every human activity yet danger promotes interest in that very activity as did gladiators in the Roman Colluseum attended by cheering citizens.

While there is much to learned from the recent Reno tragedy, how much of it will translate into preventative actions and what will they be?

Anyone?

SD

nitroairplane Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:34 am

As long as people take risks there will there will be casualties.
But at least it was a risky activity he chose to partake in due to a passion not being forced into it.

SuperDave Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:51 am

Just caught this re: polot Jimmy Leeward & "The Ghost"::

"One of Leeward's friends and a fellow race pilot observes: "...in addition to tab failure. Only one tab was trim-able which requires more travel as a single tab. (the P-51 usually has trim tabs on both elevators) What occurred and he was warned by several of us is there is an unnecessary great load on the single tab. When it failed the plane pitched so violently that it (the loads) broke the tail gear up lock as evident in the impact photo." Others have mentioned that the Galloping Ghost required heavy nose down trim at race speed, and required almost full down elevator trim. If the trim tab failed first, the aircraft would have pitched up violently, and video shows a VERY abrupt pull up that apparently created enough "G" loads to fail the tail gear lock, and quite likely the pilot seat as well, either back or down which would have forced Leeward out of position, and may well have incapacitated or at the very least disorientated him."

SD

GermanBeez Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:54 am

SuperDave wrote:Just caught this re: polot Jimmy Leeward & "The Ghost"::

"One of Leeward's friends and a fellow race pilot observes: "...in addition to tab failure. Only one tab was trim-able which requires more travel as a single tab. (the P-51 usually has trim tabs on both elevators) What occurred and he was warned by several of us is there is an unnecessary great load on the single tab. When it failed the plane pitched so violently that it (the loads) broke the tail gear up lock as evident in the impact photo." Others have mentioned that the Galloping Ghost required heavy nose down trim at race speed, and required almost full down elevator trim. If the trim tab failed first, the aircraft would have pitched up violently, and video shows a VERY abrupt pull up that apparently created enough "G" loads to fail the tail gear lock, and quite likely the pilot seat as well, either back or down which would have forced Leeward out of position, and may well have incapacitated or at the very least disorientated him."

SD

wow, i wouldn't want to fly with such a badly trimmed out plane...especially because the p-51 is one of the most powerful prop fighters in history.

SuperDave Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:20 pm

A prayer:

If there is any good to come out of this it will a reminder of the ever-present danger of high speed low level flight. Every so often incidents like this stronly re-enforce that message.

What ever the cause of the crash it pales in the light of this message.

May Jimmy Leeward and the "Galloping Ghost" or the other causualties not have died in vain.

Amen

SD

Cz10 Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:24 pm

microflitedude Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:40 am

Amen...

nitroairplane Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:09 am

**Admin** Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:10 am

GermanBeez Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:20 pm

SuperDave Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:51 pm

Thaks guys.

Although not a formally religious man, I often offer prayer in both times of joy and in sorrow.

I recall upon the occassion of 9/11 my fishing partners and I standing in a circle holding hands while I offered a prayer. It was relective not only of the terrible event but the manner in which it would effect the world this before the final causual number was known.

My tribute to "Jimmy" and "The Ghost" was no less. A simple prayer can unite people when they need uniting to heal a wound or a celebrate a victory; it just not done often enough for there are things greater than ourselves regardless of our faiths.

SD

PV Pilot Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:18 pm

Very nice SD.

I'll add the pilots prayer/poem.

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, --and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of --Wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air...
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew --
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

Pops was a private pilot for years, so I had the rare chance that some folks never get of being able to do such a thing as flying. This poem/prayer hung in his hangar on the wall.

Prayers for all involved and who have been taken into his arms.

I seen some horrible footage of it that I wish I could unsee.

nitroairplane Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:23 pm

SuperDave wrote:Thaks guys.

Although not a formally religious man, I often offer prayer in both times of joy and in sorrow.

I recall upon the occassion of 9/11 my fishing partners and I standing in a circle holding hands while I offered a prayer. It was relective not only of the terrible event but the manner in which it would effect the world this before the final causual number was known.

My tribute to "Jimmy" and "The Ghost" was no less. A simple prayer can unite people when they need uniting to heal a wound or a celebrate a victory; it just not done often enough for there are things greater than ourselves regardless of our faiths.

SD

Same i dont consider myself a religious man but sometimes i think someones watchin' out for us i am not a pilot but have had loads of close shaves cycling.
Also some stories involving cliffs while snowboarding.
but that should be kept away from this thread.

SuperDave Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:08 pm

nitro:

Your "two-legged horse" runs like an ostrich, I am just waiting for him to put his head in the sand.

Would that in any way be suggestive of you? Laughing

SD

nitroairplane Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:13 pm

No it just looks like i used to it school sports days. lol!

SuperDave Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:38 pm

nitroairplane wrote:No it just looks like i used to it school sports days.

Then I assume you had "your tail pulled" often. Could that have been a portent of things to come, like as a moderator? Wink

SD

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