Re: COX .020 RC PROJECT

GallopingGhostler Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:04 pm

Eric, you had that old traveling .010 TD engine really turning and burning on those CL lines. Very Happy

TD ABUSER wrote:The relative cost to buy a radio like that in the 1960s must have been more than what most people could afford.

The 6 channel reed systems were like what? $200 (1-2 rudder, 3-4 elevator, 5-6 motor control). $200 in 1965 is now $1,998.70. That's why most opted for escapement systems for say, $40, now $399.74.

With compound escapement capable of slaving a motor control escapement, it was like telegraphing control codes to the airborne system. 1 click on the single control switch and hold was say, right rudder, 2 clicks and hold was left rudder, 3 clicks and hold was say up elevator, 4 clicks and hold was down elevator. A very quick short click was motor control high, another motor control low or whatever one wanted other than high.

It was like sending Morse Code to the airplane. But, from the 1950's with miniature electron tube receivers and solid state transistors in the late 1950's - early 1960's, these systems were the most affordable for the average R/C enthusiasts.

Like now that the better to do can afford real model turbine jet engines, then it was the same who afforded the fancier proportional radio systems. It's why I afforded a then $70 (now $527.17) Ace R/C Pulse Commander for 1/4-A flight in December 1972. Although rudder only, the system was true proportional control, which spared me the extra skills required to successfully fly an escapement system.

A year later Hobby Shack came out with a 2 channel 2 stick modern digital proportional system with dry batteries and two standard servos for around $100. It continued to progress further until now we have affordable systems.

In college around 1979, I bought a kit Cannon 4 channel radio kit with 2 then mini servos. Required stuffing circuit boards, only the transmitter RF section was "pre-wired". Forgot what I paid, but guess was around $100. Then, proportional systems were a little out of the grasp of a college student with limited funds. I built it, it worked, used the system in my Q-Tee that I converted from Ace single channel to rudder and elevator proportional. It flew well with the Cannon.

(Actually, the kit version of the Cannon 410 four channel mini proportional was sold under the Charlie's R/C label. "Charlie" was Bill Cannon's wife.)

TD ABUSER Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:15 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Eric, you had that old traveling .010 TD engine really turning and burning on those CL lines.

TD ABUSER wrote:The relative cost to buy a radio like that in the 1960s must have been more than what most people could afford.
The 6 channel reed systems were like what? $200 (1-2 rudder, 3-4 elevator, 5-6 motor control). $200 in 1965 is now $1,998.70. That's why most opted for escapement systems for say, $40, now $399.74.

With compound escapement capable of slaving a motor control escapement, it was like telegraphing control codes to the airborne system. 1 click on the single control switch and hold was say, right rudder, 2 clicks and hold was left rudder, 3 clicks and hold was say up elevator, 4 clicks and hold was down elevator. A very quick short click was motor control high, another motor control low or whatever one wanted other than high.

It was like sending Morse Code to the airplane. But, from the 1950's with miniature electron tube receivers and solid state transistors in the late 1950's - early 1960's, these systems were the most affordable for the average R/C enthusiasts.

Like now that the better to do can afford real model turbine jet engines, then it was the same who afforded the fancier proportional radio systems. It's why I afforded a then $70 Ace R/C Pulse Commander for 1/4-A flight in December 1972. Although rudder only, the system was true proportional control, which spared me the extra skills required to successfully fly an escapement system.

A year later Hobby Shack came out with a 2 channel 2 stick modern digital proportional system with dry batteries and two standard servos for around $100. It continued to progress further until now we have affordable systems.

In college around 1979, I bought a kit Cannon 4 channel radio kit with 2 then mini servos. Required stuffing circuit boards, only the transmitter RF section was "pre-wired". Forgot what I paid, but guess was around $100. Then, proportional systems were a little out of the grasp of a college student with limited funds. I built it, it worked, used the system in my Q-Tee that I converted from Ace single channel to rudder and elevator proportional. It flew well with the Cannon.

(Actually, the kit version of the Cannon 410 four channel mini proportional was sold under the Charlie's R/C label. "Charlie" was Bill Cannon's wife.)

I am amazed to look at the drawings of those systems but I've never seen any in real life.
I wonder about the rubberband that was used for torque..how many turns of the rubber were used for a typical 5 minute flight/
I also wonder how difficult setting up the rudder control mechanisms were...how critical things were in order to function.

rdw777 Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:21 pm

Nice flight around and thru the trees TD…. Plane worked out great and piloting was excellent…. Using power available to best advantage….I particularly liked the loop immediately followed a wing over to miss the next tree without stalling it out!…. Landing right at home….On top of that, Easily toggling back and forth with CL and RC…Cool!! Cool

TD ABUSER Sat Sep 14, 2024 6:04 pm

getback wrote:Oh that is not my Coachman,, And said OLD pic it has grown up much more now where we use to split wood and have it brought in from dump trucks ! about to move the splitter back out there to the side to sooo less room , alot of my pine trees got the bug and small ones made a fence line there on the left still room to fly 1/2A though !! You can see the trees here with my old as fling LOL

I think having trees in your field of view adds to the dizziness factor...!

TD ABUSER Sat Sep 14, 2024 6:09 pm

rdw777 wrote:Nice flight around and thru the trees TD…. Plane worked out great and piloting was excellent…. Using power available to best advantage….I particularly liked the loop immediately followed a wing over to miss the next tree without stalling it out!…. Landing right at home….On top of that, Easily toggling back and forth with CL and RC…Cool!!

Thanks but there were a few times when I just got lucky.
I've scoped out a better place just a few miles from my house...but I also think the Littlest Stick with .020 will be easier to fly around the house.
Did you beef your LS up in any areas...?

Here's some RC fun in the back yard with a Norvel /074...many years ago.......

GallopingGhostler Sat Sep 14, 2024 6:37 pm

That's a fantastic and interesting 3D plane and engine combination, @TD ABUSER, some really neat but wild gyrations.

Found this thread going back to 2011, someone put a .051 TD on an Ace Littlest Stick and flew it!

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t986-the-flight-before-christmasace-littlest-stick-powered-by-throttled-cox-teedee-051

Jaspur_x wrote: I hope this 1 works lol Other links I posted elsewhere worked just fine.....What da I keep teling you guys, when it comes to tech I don`t know

Of course midflight he buried it. I've flown the LS on Pee Wee power and as is, it is sufficiently fast on R/O. I thought my Q-Tee on Norvel .061 was sufficiently pleasantly fast, turned a trainer into a nice sport plane.

But I don't think I could handle an LS on .049 - .051 TD power. Laughing

TD ABUSER Sat Sep 14, 2024 9:25 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:

I've flown the LS on Pee Wee power and as is, it is sufficiently fast on R/O. I thought my Q-Tee on Norvel .061 was sufficiently pleasantly fast, turned a trainer into a nice sport plane.

But I don't think I could handle an LS on .049 - .051 TD power.

I tried using the stiffest piece of 1/16" balsa sheet I could find for the stab elevator and it seemed too flimsy to do the job. So I used some spray adhesive to add another layer of 1/16" sheet to the entire belly and stab, [but left the elevator as 1/16" thick].

The other thing that blows my mind about the LS is how that tiny rudder can get the job done.
I wonder if Fred Reese got lucky with this minimalist design on the first try or if he had to teak it here and there to seek the least amount of strength, surface area, weight that it would get the job done,

GallopingGhostler Sat Sep 14, 2024 9:59 pm

I'd replace those 1/16th tail surfaces with medium or soft 3/32nd balsa. The moving rudder for rudder only is sufficient. With the shorter distance of the wing to elevator, you don't need much. For Ace Pulse and Adams actuator, you have deflections of + and - 45 degrees. If you want to use less for servo operation, then one can enlarge the rudder.

TD ABUSER Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:07 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:I'd replace those 1/16th tail surfaces with medium or soft 3/32nd balsa. The moving rudder for rudder only is sufficient. With the shorter distance of the wing to elevator, you don't need much. For Ace Pulse and Adams actuator, you have deflections of + and - 45 degrees. If you want to use less for servo operation, then one can enlarge the rudder.

thanks for the info.
I'll try the "factory original" rudder and take it from there. I just think it's amazing how little it takes to be effective.

rdw777 Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:30 am

TD ABUSER wrote: Did you beef your LS up in any areas...?

Hi TD, When it was originally built I wrapped
the nose in silk and coated with dope….. May
be part of why it has survived all this
time…After its last rebuild and knowing it
would be flying from a rough field, I covered
over the original tissue on the wing with an old
silk scarf from a second hand store and doped
it on. Tough as nails…I also added the
rubber band mounted landing gear with
oversized wheels... Acts more like a shock
absorber than for graceful landings…. Also doped on a layer of tissue over the silk on the nose….Flying weight is 5.5 oz

The stabilizer got some tissue trim doped on
that provides a little extra strength and helps
gaurd against warping…... A better view of the
fin/rudder in this photo

TD ABUSER Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:11 am

rdw777 wrote:
TD ABUSER wrote: Did you beef your LS up in any areas...?

Hi TD, When it was originally built I wrapped
the nose in silk and coated with dope….. May
be part of why it has survived all this
time…After its last rebuild and knowing it
would be flying from a rough field, I covered
over the original tissue on the wing with an old
silk scarf from a second hand store and doped
it on. Tough as nails…I also added the
rubber band mounted landing gear with
oversized wheels... Acts more like a shock
absorber than for graceful landings…. Also doped on a layer of tissue over the silk on the nose….Flying weight is 5.5 oz

The stabilizer got some tissue trim doped on
that provides a little extra strength and helps
gaurd against warping…... A better view of the
fin/rudder in this photo

Thanks for the info..!
I've heard others say that tissue or silk adds a lot of strength, I've just got no experience dealing with 1/16" balsa sheet.
What do you use for a battery and servos...?

rdw777 Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:34 am

TD ABUSER wrote:Thanks for the info..!
I've heard others say that tissue or silk adds a lot of strength, I've just got no experience dealing with 1/16" balsa sheet.
What do you use for a battery and servos...?

You bet TD, Judging from your other projects your LS will be a winner!….Yes 1/16 material seems kind of thin …. Mine is mostly bare wood with dope and tissue trim, but dope adds it’s own little bit of strength and stiffness the wood further…. The original article on the LS by Fred Reese suggests that Monokote could be used to cover the entire plane…. So I guess any film covering could add strength as well…

The servos in my plane are a couple of older Bluebird servos….They’re wrapped in mounting tape so I can’t see exactly which ones but probably in the 5-6 gram range each…A Hobby King micro operates the throttle…. Power is from a 2S - 300 mah battery velcroed under the floor that the receiver is sitting on… Accessed thru a hatch underneath…. I have a 5 volt regulator in the switch harness to step down the power from the battery….. The receiver is a Orange RX R618XL…. Input voltage for the RX is 3.7 - 9.6 …. I’ve since found out the RX has its own 5 volt output for the servos so the external regulator in the switch harness may not be necessary…. Just haven’t done that experiment yet to find out…

GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:40 am

Takes a little to jog memories, but the last of several LS's I've built, I used Silkspun Coverright to cover the 1/16th inch thick tail surfaces. It added considerable strength with minimal weight.

Plus, one can use gentle heat from an iron to remove warps.

Today, I would use one of the lightweight tissue like synthetic coverings.

rdw777 Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:05 pm

Sound great George, I think many things can work on thin surfaces, And like you say, Heat could be used to control warps with films…... Another one I wouldn’t be afraid of these days is using spar varnish on solid surfaces…. I used it on my .020 powered glider and it’s holding up well…. It even stiffened up the foam wing enough that I didn’t bother with any additional spars afterward….

TD’s cellophane covering is interesting too…. Looks great on his CL projects….. I bought a roll to experiment with, Just haven’t done it yet…

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:31 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Takes a little to jog memories, but the last of several LS's I've built, I used Silkspun Coverright to cover the 1/16th inch thick tail surfaces. It added considerable strength with minimal weight.

Plus, one can use gentle heat from an iron to remove warps.

Today, I would use one of the lightweight tissue like synthetic coverings.

Thanks for the advice....the next one I build will be more faithful to the original specs.
I've had a look at the Fritzke Plan Service LS as well and they were pretty faithful to Fred Reese's specs.

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:57 pm

rdw777 wrote:
TD ABUSER wrote:Thanks for the info..!
I've heard others say that tissue or silk adds a lot of strength, I've just got no experience dealing with 1/16" balsa sheet.
What do you use for a battery and servos...?

You bet TD, Judging from your other projects your LS will be a winner!….Yes 1/16 material seems kind of thin …. Mine is mostly bare wood with dope and tissue trim, but dope adds it’s own little bit of strength and stiffness the wood further…. The original article on the LS by Fred Reese suggests that Monokote could be used to cover the entire plane…. So I guess any film covering could add strength as well…

The servos in my plane are a couple of older Bluebird servos….They’re wrapped in mounting tape so I can’t see exactly which ones but probably in the 5-6 gram range each…A Hobby King micro operates the throttle…. Power is from a 2S - 300 mah battery velcroed under the floor that the receiver is sitting on… Accessed thru a hatch underneath…. I have a 5 volt regulator in the switch harness to step down the power from the battery….. The receiver is a Orange RX R618XL…. Input voltage for the RX is 3.7 - 9.6 …. I’ve since found out the RX has its own 5 volt output for the servos so the external regulator in the switch harness may not be necessary…. Just haven’t done that experiment yet to find out…

]

Thanks for the look inside your plane..!

Well I had an interesting maiden flight with the LS yesterday. Right after launch it met up with some anti aircraft fire and the pilot had to ditch the plane in the heavily wooded part of my yard, 50 feet up in a birch tree. This happened Sunday morning and it took me until about noon yesterday to find the tree it was stuck in. I used my John Deere 950 to mow down all the under brush that makes the forests of Washington tough to take a walk in and just started plowing through parts of my yard I've never set foot on..
So quite a lot of chainsaw work had to be done just to get a clear shot at the little branch the plane was stuck in.
In the photos you can see the anti aircraft fire whizzed right past the engine tank mount, nailed the LIFE battery, nailed the RX and both servos. Very Happy

The fuel line was even severed about 2 inches from the needle valve and the balloon tank was hit too.
[Truthfully my strategy to blast the little branch that snagged the plane wasn't working so I switched to a bow and arrow with about 50 feet of brick layer twine tied to the arrow. It took several arrow shots to finally snag the branch and shake the plane loose. So the recovery was made today by lunch time.

The plane was tail heavy thanks to all of the "beefing up" I did here and there of the airframe and I was using too much control surface throw. The plane kept gaining altitude while I had it doing consecutive loops...but the wind caused the loops to drift the plane behind me into the woods...basically OOS until I just barely caught a glimpse of it making some leaves fly as it hit one of several trees that are in that jungle.

GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:01 pm

Wow! Quite a story, and now your Littlest Stick has been baptized in actual combat, surrounded by flak, Australian machine gunnery and menacing Sopwiths with none other than RAF Captain Arthur Roy Brown and Allied henchmen on your tail, @TD ABUSER. Very Happy

Familiar "typical" war damage, repairable, it will live again. Cool

(I used to insanely keep my wrecked planes repaired, so didn't have as many in the hangar, but had a blast flying the same, how one gets so familiar with fun handling in flight.)
Stereo

You'll need to post your victories on the front side of the aircraft, perhaps some British or French roundels (or even the outline of each pine tree) Laughing

to show your LS is now a veteran. Very Happy

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 16, 2024 5:37 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Wow! Quite a story, and now your Littlest Stick has been baptized in actual combat, surrounded by flak, Australian machine gunnery and menacing Sopwiths with none other than RAF Captain Arthur Roy Brown and Allied henchmen on your tail, @TD ABUSER.

Familiar "typical" war damage, repairable, it will live again.

(I used to insanely keep my wrecked planes repaired, so didn't have as many in the hangar, but had a blast flying the same, how one gets so familiar with fun handling in flight.)

You'll need to post your victories on the front side of the aircraft, perhaps some British or French roundels (or even the outline of each pine tree) to show your LS is now a veteran.

We still haven't recovered the little pilot.
After doing 20 consecutive inside loops and lomchevaks I think he bailed out in the jungle Laughing

One thing that really paid off was internet advice from those who make radio their hobby. They are always trying to send lines way up into trees so that they can get the antennas as high as possible.
The paying out of string is the trickiest part of getting the bow and arrow idea to work. What made it doable was having the string unspooled and simply laying loosely in a tupperware container. It didn't always pay out the string without tangles but I was able to get it to work for 1/2 my attempts smoothly with no tangles.
Just a thrift store bow that might have cost $5 and some blunt tip arrows to act as grappling hooks did the trick.

GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:08 pm

Good you gained some recovery tool expertise from radio amateur friends.

While a junior high and high school student, put a longwire antenna across the roof of our house. Was listening to broadcasts in English at late night as far as portions of US Midwest, Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, even South Africa back in late 1960's to early 1970's on my 3 tube regenerative Graymark kit radio on AM broadcast band, 40 and 20 meters.

Found news that was newsworthy but absent our US news.

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:59 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Good you gained some recovery tool expertise from radio amateur friends.

While a junior high and high school student, put a longwire antenna across the roof of our house. Was listening to broadcasts in English at late night as far as portions of US Midwest, Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, even South Africa back in late 1960's to early 1970's on my 3 tube regenerative Graymark kit radio on AM broadcast band, 40 and 20 meters.

Found news that was newsworthy but absent our US news.

I think that would be a project worth doing where I live

rdw777 Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:00 am

Wow TD, What a wild flight and retrieval!!…. Kudos to you for giving it a try in that tough environment with all the trees…. I bet if you would have had the chance to get it trimmed out in the open you could navigate the trees just fine…. Glad you got your engine back for sure!!…. That along with reusing some of parts of the plane is a good excuse to go again!! Very Happy

getback Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:41 am

What were you using a shotgun lol!

Sorry for that pretty rough looking now , that is the thing about fling where you can't get a grip on things before they get out of control , Glad you where able to get it back (well what is left) I had a trainer stuck in a tree for a week at a business cross the street where we where , final came down they called me for retrieval Friends/Meeting

TD ABUSER Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:05 am

rdw777 wrote:Wow TD, What a wild flight and retrieval!!…. Kudos to you for giving it a try in that tough environment with all the trees…. I bet if you would have had the chance to get it trimmed out in the open you could navigate the trees just fine…. Glad you got your engine back for sure!!…. That along with reusing some of parts of the plane is a good excuse to go again!!

I've had time to digest what went wrong.

I was in too much of a hurry to fly it.

I made some stupid decisions about how to do this and that while building it. Embarassed

Funny how spending hours in the woods looking for a lost Cox .020 gives a guy time to think .... Laughing

TD ABUSER Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:19 am

getback wrote: What were you using a shotgun Sorry for that pretty rough looking now , that is the thing about fling where you can't get a grip on things before they get out of control , Glad you where able to get it back (well what is left) I had a trainer stuck in a tree for a week at a business cross the street where we where , final came down they called me for retrieval

I started out with a .22 rifle with just peep sights.
The fuselage was laying lengthwise on top of a small branch about an inch thick...50 feet high....at a pretty uncomfortable angle for aiming. A couple shots I could see made the branch splinter and the plane shift.
Next try was with a .380 pocket pistol. It really is hard to use peep sights with all of the leaves and shadows in the background while looking straight up into a tree.
So I got no where doing that.
I've got a Mossberg .270...[that you could use to drop a small tree with] but that thing could overshoot the boundaries of my land.
Looks like John Dillinger was hired to get the plane back...!
Some of those shots went through the branch and the fuselage both.
To make the bow and arrow idea work I had to spend time cutting a lot of undergrowth away to create a clear path for the string that was being towed aloft by the arrow. Any slight snags make the arrow fly off course.

A side note about Washington forests.
If you walk through old growth cedar that dates back to Adam & Eve the cedar trees do a good enough job of blocking out the Sun to prevent thick underbrush from growing. There is a lot of uninhabited [protected] land that borders mine that looks just like this. It really is a Cake Walk to hike through the old growth forest. This is what the Pioneer Settlers and the Indians traveled through back in the day.
Once the old growth got cut down it became a FREE FOR ALL for all of the faster growing junk to pop up. Thorny black berries and salmon berries dominate, along with birch, poplar and cotton wood now. My area was "logged off" sometime around the 1960s..most of the old cedars were taken back then. I don't know why they left some behind but I'm thankful they did.

GallopingGhostler Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:28 pm

I guess then you found Charlie Brown's kite eating tree. Christmas Tree

Regarding those long distance broadcast band and short wave receptions from foreign countries, that was when I was living in Hawaii.

Build and crash conditions, been there done that. Flew Q-Tee with my .061 Norvel, but in a tail heavy configuration (under Cox Golden Bee it balanced properly) and flew in windy conditions, crashed it again, totalling the front. Still yet to rebuild.

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