010 head stops glowing

Andras,

The three heads that we refunded you for last year, please throw them away, so that your count goes from 9 to 6 units that you are sitting on Please do contact Vincent and make arrangements with him and my guess is that there will be a mutual resolution, after which you can also throw away the remaining 6 units, leaving you with zero units to look at and remember any deficiencies associated with them.

China is not the problem and it's not price driven, as their pricing is often higher than in the USA, sometimes much higher. Quality and reliability are our goal and I can assure you that we have had less issues witch Chinese production runs than elsewhere, including my home country Germany. Seeing that 50% of our sales are to the USA, I really don't want to get into it, as I am not interested in offending residents of any country.

Once again, we stand 100% behind what we sell and, if anything is ever defective, we make the buyer whole.

Thanks Bernie..I feel embarrassed because this discussion of product failure, that may not be epidemic, but is surely hitting me in particular, may backfire on your business and this is not my goal for sure.

I would not be so forgiving in your shoes with my Chinese supplier ( believe me I know many of them in the more sophisticated power industry, and there are good and therr are lousy ones too as regards quality control) and make sure their filament material certificate truly and always complies with the COX specs., but this is not my call.

This head is a very simple product and as such, is easy to mess up with only one of its parts not complying.

Don't be embarrassed; it's a public forum dedicated to Cox and public product feedback is part of the equation.

I addressed your concerns, you probably will be refunded for the further 6 units that you bought. 3 People complaining out of what is likely 1,000 that purchased the item is a 0.3% ratio and, for a mass-produced item, probably not a high ratio. I have now annotated the listings to this possible issue and it is unlikely that we will get another complaint as to the RPM dropping when the glow clip is removed.

Although they sold stronger in the beginning (pent up demand) sales have slowed to under 100 / year so that, when we run out of current stock, will probably discontinue that item. Discontinued item = no complaints for that item going forward

Trying not to flog a dead horse, but maybe one less head shim or more nitro may solve the rpm loss? Just thinking out loud. And respect for someone trying to carry on the Cox line.

aspeed wrote:Trying not to flog a dead horse, but maybe one less head shim or more nitro may solve the rpm  loss?  Just thinking out loud.  And respect for someone trying to carry on the Cox line.

I believe that Andras is using one glow head gasket and 35% Nitro, so that should not be the issue. But I am not sure what the exact fuel compositions are in Bulgaria, so could be a factor, or maybe not.

Andras is an experienced modeler; with experience in Cox .010 engines, so I have to respect that as well; and I do believe that he is experiencing a drop in RPM when removing the glow clip. Why... I don't know?

I did confer with our competitor today; with whom we shared the production runs, and he experienced one failure in the past decade, and it was due to leakage through the insulators inside I believe. That is something that can occasionally happen with mass-produced items.

As there have only been 2-3 complaints of RPM dropping, we will continue to sell our stock as is, with the annotation on the listings that RPM drop could be an issue.

Once stock runs out and we discontinue 010 glow heads, this whole thing will no longer be an issue

Would be curious to hear if there is an RPM drop with 25% Nitro.

Some time ago, maybe 30 years ago, Swanson Associates had received some defective platinum or iridium coated nichrome wire. It worked fine initially, but the plating deteriorated so that the RPM would experience a noticeable drop after the glow ignition wires were removed.

I came across such plugs, purchased a whole card of 10 or a dozen NOS off an Internet auction. These were the Swanson Red Hot standard (no idle bar) plugs. I would go to the flying field, my plane flew well with the new plug in the engine. Return next week, and all I got was sputtering, short bursts, etc. So, I unwrapped a new plug, and got the same exhiliarating experience. Come to the field a week or two later, same thing.

My Enya .09-III TV is a faithful runner, what gives?

Then I found this discussion on one of the other engine forums, about the Swanson issue. Interestingly, I received an old Enya #30 standard plug on an old used .09-III TV I bought. It still runs like it is brand new.

So, could this explain why there was an RPM drop after the ignition wires were removed?

We used Fireball (Swanson) plugs a lot in the 1970s for Goodyear racing because the elements stood up to high nitro. Unfortunately the seals would leak after a good run. We put epoxy over the seal to try to reseal this. It did not really go well. I have heard of a method that uses vacuum on the element side to suck the epoxy into the crack to give a better result. I have a card that I have to remove the old epoxy and will try the vacuum method some day when I need them. I think the Fox plugs were plated and the element never lasted if pushed hard, at least in my experience.

aspeed wrote:Trying not to flog a dead horse, but maybe one less head shim or more nitro may solve the rpm  loss?  Just thinking out loud.  And respect for someone trying to carry on the Cox line.

I fly all COX engines sizes beween 010 and 09. The 020 and higher run with 20% nitro only.
I am burning 50%methanol/30%nitro/20% castor blend only in the 010-s, with 1 head shim..once I replace the aftermarket head with an old stock, the problem is gone.

GallopingGhostler wrote:Some time ago, maybe 30 years ago, Swanson Associates had received some defective platinum or iridium coated nichrome wire. It worked fine initially, but the plating deteriorated so that the RPM would experience a noticeable drop after the glow ignition wires were removed.

I came across such plugs, purchased a whole card of 10 or a dozen NOS off an Internet auction. These were the Swanson Red Hot standard (no idle bar) plugs. I would go to the flying field, my plane flew well with the new plug in the engine. Return next week, and all I got was sputtering, short bursts, etc. So, I unwrapped a new plug, and got the same exhiliarating experience. Come to the field a week or two later, same thing.

My Enya .09-III TV is a faithful runner, what gives?

Then I found this discussion on one of the other engine forums, about the Swanson issue. Interestingly, I received an old Enya #30 standard plug on an old used .09-III TV I bought. It still runs like it is brand new.

So, could this explain why there was an RPM drop after the ignition wires were removed?

To re-iterate what I posted earlier in the thread (last year), our filaments are not "coated" but rather "solid". Andras's issues are right from the beginning, so would not have anything to do with coating, even if our filaments were coated.

aspeed wrote:We used Fireball (Swanson) plugs a lot in the 1970s for Goodyear racing because the elements stood up to high nitro.  Unfortunately the seals would leak after a good run.  We put epoxy over the seal to try to reseal this.  It did not really go well.  I have heard of a method that uses vacuum on the element side to suck the epoxy into the crack to give a better result. I have a card that I have to remove the old epoxy and will try the vacuum method some day when I need them.  I think the Fox plugs were plated and the element never lasted if pushed hard, at least in my experience.  

Andras' issue is not about sealing, rather it is about RPMs dropping when the glow clip is removed. That aside, no glues or epoxies are used in our glow head manufacturing. If there is a leak between the bottom and lower insulators inside, RPM should remain the same before and after glow clip connection / disconnection; namely it will not work at all due to loss of compression.

balogh wrote:

aspeed wrote:Trying not to flog a dead horse, but maybe one less head shim or more nitro may solve the rpm  loss?  Just thinking out loud.  And respect for someone trying to carry on the Cox line.

I fly all COX engines sizes beween 010 and 09. The 020 and higher run with 20% nitro only.
I am burning 50%methanol/30%nitro/20% castor blend only in the 010-s, with 1 head shim..once I replace the aftermarket head with an old stock, the problem is gone.

Andras,

My understanding is that we agreed on several points:

As opposed to myself, you are an experienced user of Cox model engines
What you are experiencing with our 010 glow heads is real
Our 010 glow heads lose 4k RPM between glow clip connect and disconnect
This is not going to change with our remaining stock
Today we put a cautionary note on our listings to this effect
We will be discontinuing 010 glow head production
You have been refunded in full for the three units that you purchased from us last year
It is expected that you will be refunded for the six units that you recently purchased from one of our German resellers

We expect that you will in the future not purchase any Cox 010 Cox glow heads that were not manufactured by the original Cox company, as those would invariably have been manufactured by us; and you would be getting the same results.

We acknowledge that, despite using OEM Cox drawings, that the filaments on our Cox 010 glow heads may result in a drop in RPM once the glow clip has been removed. We have taken responsibility for this and have implemented a respective caveat on our listings for those glow heads.

We don't know why this issue is happening but it is less effort for us to simply discontinue an item than spend time improving something that is a slow seller in the first place. Basically a negative ROI (Return On Investment). After all, there is only so much time that I can spend on an item that grosses under $500 / year in net revenue.

I write this with the utmost respect. Going   from Thursday until Tuesday

Thanks, Bernie,

this is a correct wrap-up of our correspondence. Of course no hard feelings on my side either, I respect your business that caters for the hobby, and appreciate your business policy to openly discuss these quality issues, and stand behind your merchandise..

I regret this item will discontinue after your stock is gone, I and others would be happier to have these heads, - with the flame-out issue tested by others too, resolved, - still available, but I understand your commercial consideration behind your decision.

Thank you if you help me get refunded for the 6 heads for MgModelbau, but as said, this is not my prime concern, my frustration is not because of the monetary loss ( I am ready to spend on this only addiction of mine) , but because of the unavailability of parts in my stock.

Cox International wrote:
We will be discontinuing 010 glow head production

Sad news

Screenshot from Mecoa, I know "coming soon" does not say much. The standard .049 heads are $17 and HC head is $19 plus shipping.
Always eBay for OEM, the price of poker is going up!!

"coming soon" from Mecoa for the heads is at least 10 years old

We do still have good stock of those 010 heads Levent.

On a brighter note, we have sold more 010 glow heads in the last three days as in the previous three months, many buyers referencing this thread; so I guess that there is a silver lining to this whole thing

Cox International wrote:"coming soon" from Mecoa for the heads is at least 10 years old

We do still have good stock of those 010 heads Levent.

On a brighter note, we have sold more 010 glow heads in the last three days as in the previous three months, many buyers referencing this thread; so I guess that there is a silver lining to this whole thing

Hello Mr. Bernie, I hope that in the melting pot of all these comments something really positive emerges.
Personally I thank you for your efforts to keep the Cox line alive!...I hope that this article remains in production, at least for a few more years. The Cox .010 is a wonderful engine, full of stories and admirers, we all enjoy Cox products very much.
I send you a big hug from Argentina!

Thanks Mauricio

Cox International wrote:"coming soon" from Mecoa for the heads is at least 10 years old

We do still have good stock of those 010 heads Levent.

On a brighter note, we have sold more 010 glow heads in the last three days as in the previous three months, many buyers referencing this thread; so I guess that there is a silver lining to this whole thing

I am honwstly happy Bernie that the discussion boosted sales of the heads!!

Levent Suberk wrote:

Poor little thing.