Re: A "hurlable" Fox .15?

rsv1cox Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:24 pm

That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings. Smile

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

roddie Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:00 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:I admire everyone's loyalty to your American made, particularly Fox, products, and I know that there are many here who love to fly their Foxs, but from all the negative stuff about them that I glean from the things written here, I really don't see why you would persist when you have engines of such exceptional build quality available out of Japan, being Enya & O.S.
Of your home-grown products, it would even appear to me that K&B engines are far superior in their function & finish than the Foxs. Sure, there are exceptions in everything, but to me, the Fox engines in my collection are a curiosity only, apart from maybe the .049, that would never be considered for use.

Sure, there are those who will think this Aussie doesn't know what he's talking about, but you don't need to look very far in these pages to find a lot of criticism of Fox engines. I can only go by what I read here and clearly there were many "duds" among them. For those who fly them and get enjoyment from them, that's great. I'm glad to have a few in my collection, but I really fail to understand why they are held in such high esteem.

Hey Rod, Fox engines gained their popularity here in the C/L Stunt circles.. particularly with the .35 engine. The RC people run Japanese engines for the most part.

The N.E.S.T. club (New England Stunt Team-CLPA) local to this area, generally used two specific engines; the Fox .35 with models built to suit.. and the Super Tiger .60 in their larger pattern-ships, through the 1990's. Around 1990 or so, the Super Tiger G51 made the scene. Not many were imported.. and they were being bought-up in quantity/lots by people who had the capitol.. and knew the engine's potential. It was the engine that filled the displacement-gap. Stunt guys are very loyal to an engine set-up that works. The Fox .35 is known for its' reliable 2-4 cycle break that gives power when needed.. then morphs back to docile/tame on level-laps. There aren't a lot of C/L engines that will behave that way.

Few would dispute the general quality of the Japanese engines.. but they're not going to cater to a miniscule-market of C/L Stunt fliers. There were a few good engines produced.. but with the general market turning toward electric-flight.. we likely won't see any new C/L engines coming from the major manufacturers. If you want to fly C/L Stunt with a glow-ignition engine.. and you're lucky enough to own a good runner; my advice is.. hang onto it.. and keep a stock of propellers that the engine likes.

GallopingGhostler Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:49 pm

oldenginerod, based on forums and the CL circle, overall I gather there are a wide range of engines used in the CL circles these days, to include the latest which is electric power. I think the following for the Foxes is related to ready availability and familiarity, especially among the old timers. Also they were perhaps the longest running CL engines until Fox quit production. Since they were manufactured locally, until recently, parts were easy to get. The rest have come and gone. Enya back in the 1980's disappeared from the scene when MRC discontinued importing them. K&B disappeared from the scene, not exactly sure but think a decade later. Super Tigre is now pretty much so gone, although Towers Hobby keeps listing their engines as "pending".

Perhaps because this forum has a lot of collectors, may be that is where love for the Foxes comes from.

Personally, I've found the McCoy .35 Red Heads to be easy to run and adjust engines, and since I have several, am partial to them. But now that I have a K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head, might gain a love for them, too. I guess that engine brands are more of a personal taste.

Anyway, this is just personal opinion and not necessarily based on any factual information, just educated and non-educated guesses, just enjoy running, cleaning and reading about engines.

And my apologies to you, roddie, as I didn't see your reply until I posted.

Oldenginerod Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:58 pm

rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

You're right Bob. We're an easily distracted bunch. Just because a topic stirs up a flurry of interest, doesn't make it more important than another. I hoped that I didn't strike a nerve with my Fox comments- just an observation on my part. I collect more than I fly, so I suppose something that looks pretty, or pretty weird, is fair game for me. Doesn't matter how it runs, so long as it runs. If I was just flying, I'd stick to Cox for the small stuff and Enya for anything else.

I can't find the thread you mentioned but I recall you mentioning the .09-II. Can't say I have one. It may be that Enya wasn't selling engines out here prior to the .09-III. There are lots of the -III models. I have a mix of -IIIs & -IVs.

Roddie.
It's strange to me reading about the 2-4 cycle run used in stunt. When I was a kid I thought 4 stroking (cycling) meant it wasn't running right. I'd screw it up to max RPM and let it rip. Don't remember my Enyas ever complaining during an inside loop or wing-over, which is about all I ever mastered. That old Aeroflyle fuel I used back then must have had good oil because in my ignorance I never managed to fry an engine from a lean run, and I ran 'em lean Affraid or WOW!

roddie Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:23 pm

rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

Bob.. You're our "Enya-Man".... If any of us needed info on an Enya engine.. one of your threads would surely come up in a search.. second only; maybe to Ian. I have only one Enya engine. It's a .19 series given to me by my Uncle Vinny. From a fit/finish standpoint; it's superior to most of my other engines. It is however heavy for a .19 size engine. It's a "V" model 4005.

A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 My_eny10

It was a toss-up between the Fox .15 steel-fin and Enya .19 between two models; the Jr. Steak (31" span..) and a Sterling Jr. Ringmaster (30" span). The Jr. Ring will have the Fox engine.

The Jr. Flite-Streak was built by my uncle too.. but never covered.

A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 Hangar10

Being old (Ambroid-cement) construction, I'll need to re-glue most joints. That will add some weight to the airframe. I'll have to mount the engine before covering; to see how it balances. The Jr. Streak is close-coupled when compared to the Jr. Ringmaster.. but it's wing-construction is more robust. My Jr. Ring is covered in Mono-Kote.. and weighs 8.5 oz. less engine.

A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 Dsc03710

The TF Jr. Streak by comparison-uncovered-less engine weighs a full .5oz. more.

A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 Dsc03711

I'll likely apply iron-on covering to the Jr. Streak too... but I'm thinking it might end-up nose-heavy. If so; I might try an aerosol primer for plastic.. and spray-bomb my finish colors to add pleasingly cosmetic/functional weight. Smile

GallopingGhostler Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:28 pm

I ran all my Coxes lean, and never had a problem. Enya is such stout stuff, I can see where they wouldn't have a problem either.

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:47 am

Oldenginerod wrote:
rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

I can't find the thread you mentioned but I recall you mentioning the .09-II. Can't say I have one. It may be that Enya wasn't selling engines out here prior to the .09-III. There are lots of the -III models. I have a mix of -IIIs & -IVs.

:

Check page one of this thread Rod. A couple of pictures too. If you have an Enya .09II with MADE IN JAPAN cast into the left (Edit - I meant right bearer, dummy me) bearer or have ever seen one, let me know.

Bob

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:56 am

[quote="roddie"]

rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

Bob.. You're our "Enya-Man".... If any of us needed info on an Enya engine.. one of your threads would surely come up in a search.. second only; maybe to Ian. I have only one Enya engine. It's a .19 series given to me by my Uncle Vinny. From a fit/finish standpoint; it's superior to most of my other engines. It is however heavy for a .19 size engine. It's a "V" model 4005.

Less need for added nose weight roddie................. Smile

Bob

GallopingGhostler Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:18 am

Could it be that Enya gained a major presence in US when the Model Rectifier Corp. (MRC) started importing and distributing them to the hobby shops? Prior to that perhaps large mail order hobby stores such as Polk's were a few that had them available, and due to import taxes and limited import quantities then were priced higher than domestic brands?

Sceptre Flight's June 1966 Aeromodeller article by Peter Chinn is for the Enya .09-III. Their November 1960 Aeromodeller article by H.R. Warring is for the Enya .09-II. Did not MRC start importing some time shortly after Peter Chinn's test? MRC stopped importing Enya's sometime in the 1980's. I hadn't realized that Enya was still selling engines until a couple years ago.

If this is the case, then may help to explain why one doesn't see many earlier US Enya's.

Surfer_kris Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:56 am

rsv1cox wrote:It is however heavy for a .19 size engine. It's a "V" model 4005.

Heavy compared to what?

It is lighter than the latest Fox .15 RC engine... Affraid or WOW!

GWILLIEFOX Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:50 am

Just more Fox details

The very first Fox 15 had squared corners on the headfins and the glo plug was offset to the exhaust side. Two pictures show this. This engine is not often seen. The rounded fins and centered plug are on the version most often encountered. I didn't want to hijack this thread, so I've got some more Enya .09II stuff on a new post. A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 045-5810

gcb Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:08 am

OK I 'fess up...I like Enya's too. Here are some of the .09's and some .19-V's:
A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 Enya0910

Surfer_kris Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:01 am

Yes, Enya engines are great!
In particularly I'm very fond of their AAN and ABC versions, here are some of mine;

A "hurlable" Fox .15? - Page 2 Img_1313

GWILLIEFOX Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:03 am

Oldenginerod wrote:I admire everyone's loyalty to your American made, particularly Fox, products, and I know that there are many here who love to fly their Foxs, but from all the negative stuff about them that I glean from the things written here, I really don't see why you would persist when you have engines of such exceptional build quality available out of Japan, being Enya & O.S.
Of your home-grown products, it would even appear to me that K&B engines are far superior in their function & finish than the Foxs. Sure, there are exceptions in everything, but to me, the Fox engines in my collection are a curiosity only, apart from maybe the .049, that would never be considered for use.

Sure, there are those who will think this Aussie doesn't know what he's talking about, but you don't need to look very far in these pages to find a lot of criticism of Fox engines. I can only go by what I read here and clearly there were many "duds" among them. For those who fly them and get enjoyment from them, that's great. I'm glad to have a few in my collection, but I really fail to understand why they are held in such high esteem.

Roddie - Your muffler may be a Froom muffler from the early 50s. Good chance it is packed with steel wool. It will really quiet your engine and probably cook your engine in the process. It took a long time before mufflers were perfected for our little jewels.

Foreign engines just weren't readily available in the USA for many years. There were importers like Polks, IMP, and some others, but they generally weren't known by US modelers. The legendary Bill Atwood was one of the first to see the fine qualities of the OS engines and imported the "Atwood Model" twin Stack 29s and 36s. OS had a big boost when the FAI FF champs were won with an OS MAX 15-I. World Engines introduced us to Super Tigre and OS in a big way. Then MRC brought in ENYA with full color inside front page ads. Phil Kraft won the RC Aerobatic Internats with an Enya 60RC and that entrenched ENYA.

At that time, late 60's early 70's, the US was still making Cox, Fox, Herkimer (OK), Johnson, K&B, McCoy, Veco. Cox was top dog in the small engines with the Bill Atwood designed Tee Dees and they were selling reed valve .049s in their RTFs. But their throttled RC engines just never caught on in any big way. the OK engines were just for sport and were disappearing. Johnson had become Dynamic models, but were also on the way out. Johnson actually had an advanced midrange mixture correcting throttle out in 1961, but it wasn't well known. The top dog California pattern fliers were replacing Super Tigre carbs with it, but a carb can't keep an engine outfit in business. McCoy had out their sport Redheads, but few were using them.

Control line was a smaller and smaller market; RC was the thing and guys were going to bigger and bigger engines. Only Fox, K&B, and Veco were in this market. The K&Bs and Vecos were some of the finest in the world, but by now the market was split between them, OS, Enya, Supertigre, and now Webra and HP. Veco folded, bought out by K&B, they folded. Fox stayed on through love of the hobby and actually had a runnable line of engines until their final days with 15s, 25s, 45s, 60s, and 74s for CL and RC. But Foxes were ugly and had a terrible reputation for un-adjustable throttles.

Why are Foxes held in high esteem? Maybe because they were a name from 1947 through 2013. Maybe because of the Stunt 35. Maybe because they made the first .40 (according the Peter Chinn). Maybe because of their combat 36s, always competitive from 1963 through 1990s. Maybe because of their 78RC, used by scale modelers until the 90s and chainsaw engines hit the market. Maybe because of interesting designs like the Longshaft 59, the legendary Stunt 35 (maybe the FIRST engine designed as a glow plug engine (not an ignition engine with the timer removed) from the start, the Splitcase .19, the Bathtub 29R, Rocket .09, the twin needle bearing 1/2" sq intake 35 RC, the twin plug Bluehead 60, the "coffin case, high backdoor" schnuerle engines and, the endless throttle designs.

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:54 am

Surfer_kris wrote:
rsv1cox wrote:It is however heavy for a .19 size engine. It's a "V" model 4005.

Heavy compared to what?

It is lighter than the latest Fox .15 RC engine...

Ya gotta ask roddie Kris as I was quoting him.

Bob

Kim Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:00 pm

rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

Not sure how you earned a "-" with this post, and popped a greenie in there as a counter. I wish we could dispense with this negative tool and just keep the green ones...appreciated posts would still accumulate points, while the lesser would die on the vine.

As to your thoughts on 'boring the population', I may be guilty in not checking in, while reading and enjoying all these. I like ALL this stuff, but often times, I don't have a real contribution to the train of thought going on and don't want to clutter the thread with "Good Thread!" posts...perhaps I should throw one in there once in a while!

I also copy and save many of Ken's, yours, and other's comments, but often have a heck of a time saving them in an order that lets me find them when I want!

That's it from me...so Fox on!

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:19 pm

Kim wrote:
rsv1cox wrote:That may be true Rod, my mention within this thread of an ultra rare Enya .09II gets zero response while the Fox 15 that I have coming is covered extensively. That said, I have no problem with it. I probably bore the population here to death with my Enya ramblings.

But I'm learning diversity, hense my recent involvement with Fox.

Bob

Not sure how you earned a "-" with this post, and popped a greenie in there as a counter. I wish we could dispense with this negative tool and just keep the green ones...appreciated posts would still accumulate points, while the lesser would die on the vine.

As to your thoughts on 'boring the population', I may be guilty in not checking in, while reading and enjoying all these. I like ALL this stuff, but often times, I don't have a real contribution to the train of thought going on and don't want to clutter the thread with "Good Thread!" posts...perhaps I should throw one in there once in a while!

I also copy and save many of Ken's, yours, and other's comments, but often have a heck of a time saving them in an order that lets me find them when I want!

That's it from me...so Fox on!

.......................................................................................................................................................

Thanks Kim, Maybe it's because I was crying in my beer too much. Whoops, forgot, I don't drink.

Bob

ian1954 Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:33 pm

I too added one of those green things. I don't like expressions of negativity following a harmless comment.

I, to my shame, have often given someone a negative by mistake and corrected it. I keep hitting the +/- thinking I am magnifying the page.

I hope - when I see a negative - that it was a mistake like mine.

Surfer_kris Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:45 pm

Perhaps the moderators can but in some safety feature on that, all takes is a second chance with something like "are you sure you want to downgrade this?"

Speaking of fox engines they never really caught on here. I think the paste that one was suppose to feed them during break-in (lustrox was it?), kind of put people off...

Enya engines always had a good reputation here, as did the OS engines.

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:17 pm

Thanks again guys. I probably should have more "reddies" than I do as I tend to ramble on.

I must be stingy with my greenies. I just checked my statistics and found that since I joined the CEF I have only given 9 which must have been extremely exceptional posts as I believe 99.9% of the posts that I read deserve greenies.

Statistics show that I have given 0 reddies.

Bob

Mark Boesen Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:42 pm

-lol, i just clicked a greenie and the red dropped a little...didn't know that, another 2-3 greenies and the red goes away?

-Yep, i hope somebody hit negative by accident, this is actually a really interesting thread!

-Remember when K&B was the KING of R/C engines?

GallopingGhostler Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:43 pm

Gave you a "greeny" too, Bob, so now only a touch of red shows. Thumbs Up

GWILLIEFOX wrote:Roddie - Your muffler may be a Froom muffler from the early 50s. Good chance it is packed with steel wool. It will really quiet your engine and probably cook your engine in the process. It took a long time before mufflers were perfected for our little jewels.

Interesting and thanks for explaining, GWILLIEFOX. Seems to have a decent chamber size and exit outlet, perhaps if steel wool was removed would be less restrictive? I removed the high restrictive internal baffles of a Tatone EM-4 .09-.19 and mated it to an Enya .09-III. Tried another with baffles removed on a Testors McCoy .19 Red Head, but it still ran hot. I drilled a series of holes attempting to convert it to a tongue muffler, but then it was very noisy. I might plug the holes with JB Weld and try it on an Enya .15-III TV some time future.

GWILLIEFOX wrote:Fox stayed on through love of the hobby and actually had a runnable line of engines until their final days with 15s, 25s, 45s, 60s, and 74s for CL and RC. But Foxes were ugly and had a terrible reputation for un-adjustable throttles.

Why are Foxes held in high esteem? Maybe because they were a name from 1947 through 2013. Maybe because of the Stunt 35. Maybe because they made the first .40 (according the Peter Chinn). Maybe because of their combat 36s, always competitive from 1963 through 1990s. Maybe because of their 78RC, used by scale modelers until the 90s and chainsaw engines hit the market. Maybe because of interesting designs like the Longshaft 59, the legendary Stunt 35 (maybe the FIRST engine designed as a glow plug engine (not an ignition engine with the timer removed) from the start, the Splitcase .19, the Bathtub 29R, Rocket .09, the twin needle bearing 1/2" sq intake 35 RC, the twin plug Bluehead 60, the "coffin case, high backdoor" schnuerle engines and, the endless throttle designs.

Thanks for the explanation on the history of non-US import engines and insight into Fox popularity, GWILLIEFOX. That is what I suspected, but I was a teen in the mid 1960's, devoted to half-A through high school, hence why I was not familiar with larger engines. In my junior or senior year, I received from my father a birthday gift, a Sterling C4 CL Waco cabin biplane. I needed an engine for it, so I bought a Testors McCoy .19 Red Head from America's Hobby Center. I don't remember the exact cost, but think it was $6 or less. Only thing is the .19 was at least 1/2 to 3/4 inch longer than the cowl allowed, hence why I never used the .19, installed it in a Sterling F-51 profile Mustang instead.

dckrsn Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:44 pm

I've never read any of your posts deserving a red, Bob.
Here's another greenie for ya.
Back on topic, the only Fox I own is a 1.2 twin(never run). Got it for a song.
If I ever start it, I'd probably be so freaked, I'd hurl lunch. Affraid or WOW!

Bob

rsv1cox Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:16 pm

Thanks guys, I'm humbled and appreciative. I really hate to think that I might have offended someone here on this forum.

BTW Gwillie posted in another thread about his Enya .09II with Made in Japan on the right bearer, so my "rare and unique" example may be neither rare or unique. I live and learn.

Bob

GWILLIEFOX Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:44 pm

I don't know how you could have offended anyone Bob. This is one of the most civil Forums on the Web.

As to the 09II, just because something is advertised doesn't mean it was actually made as pictured.

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