These people LITERALLY think I’m an idiot.

rsv1cox wrote:I feel your pain Mark, there is nothing more frustrating than to be let down mid trip.  Last time it happened to me was way back when my 1982 Camero gave up the ghost.  Switched to Honda.  End of problems.  

Amen brother. It pains me to say it, but buy Japanese every time and drive it until the wheels fall off.

$1,000 for a camshaft sensor? They're dreaming. I can't see the sensor being the problem anyway, inless the integrity has been breached and the oil is getting into the sensor & leaking through it, rather than out of the o-ring. If these are the symptoms, the only reason I can think of that they would condemn the whole engine is if there was excessive blow-by causing pressure to build up in the crank case, forcing the oil out.
Hyundais are very hit & miss. One will do great, the next will be worn out in no time. Always rattle, always leak, always have crank sensor problems (not cam in my experience).
Like JPvelo says, you can't really go wrong with Jap, especially something like Toyota or Honda. Had an 8 year old Toyota Hilux (Pick-up) in for a 300,000 km service yesterday. Never so much as a belt or hose, let alone some heavy mechanical part. 300,000 kms of nothing but regular services. Another guy has two early 90's Camrys, both with over 550,000 kms on the clock. One has had a head gasket (caused by a failed water pump) and the other a new distributor. Other than that, just minor stuff. You can't ask better than that.
The Koreans will eventually catch up to the Jap quality, with the Chinese after that, but they've got a way to go.
Don't get me started on European cars. I had one Saab in once for a clutch. Clutch was at the front of the car against the radiator. Timing belt is against the firewall. Parking brake works on the front wheels. No thanks! They seem like they do things different just for the sake of being different. Sorry Kari, but they're not for me. No European car seems to tolerate Aussie conditions. Don't know why they even bother to bring them out here.

Get some REAL MOKANICS ..  

Don't get a Toyota unless you don't mind having the oldest car in the parking lot.

George

Batjac, for the reasons you state is why I do all my mechanical work except for stuff I can't do, like exhaust system repairs. At least when I do the repair, it works. Even replaced the heater core in my 1999 Chevy S10 pickup, required pulling the steering wheel and entire dashboard. Glad I didn't have the V-8 version, would have required removing the hood, front bumper to allow removal of the right fender to loosen on bolt.

Since you already suspect that this dealer you took your car the first time treated you unfaithfully and again just now apparently is demonstrating the same. I suggest you call around, find from your friends who they recommend. Also check businesses with BBB. BBB is not the organization they were when they first formed, but their complaint logs can help to verify a bad business. Then have the car towed to that business.

If costs are truly that high, an honest mechanic would explain to you why. A good 3rd party non-dealer mechanic who is faithful ought to get it fixed properly and at a reasonable, may be not the cheapest, but certainly not the most expensive, just done right. Once you find that mechanic, then stick with them, will give you a peace of mind.

Good luck, George.

I'd love to have an old late 1950's Jaguar, but would opt for the small block Chevy V-8 conversion kit. Then replace the Lucas electrics with something better. Lucas created darkness. This would get rid of the inherent weaknesses and provide a reasonably nice ride with historic looks.

I've been "carless" for 3 weeks now. My 2005 Chevy Trailblazer's transmission pooped the bed at 85K mi. From what I've researched.. I did pretty good. Apparently it's 4L60E 4-speed automatic transmission has high failure rates around 60K mi. Chrysler has had early transmission trouble too. The "Big 3" American auto manufacturers "used" to build decent automatic transmissions.. but that was when they were 3-speed automatics. Chrysler's 727 Torque-Flight was a good tranny.. also GM's Turbo 400.. Ford's C6.. The Federal Government's push for better fuel economy has forced the re-invention of the wheel. There's too many computer-controlled systems and related sensors in automobiles today. Fuel injection was a leap forward in drivability.. especially in colder climates.. but do we really need 6-speed automatic transmissions? They will break.. and in most cases; before the vehicle is paid for. Shameful engineering.

My brothers have both owned Toyota pick-up trucks.. and have had stellar dependability from them.. old and new. My youngest brother is on his second "Tundra" 4 X 4.. and will never go back to a Ford F250. It's a shame.. because the Ford F-series pick-up "used" to be the working-man's truck.. not any more. Maybe the "Donald" can turn things around.. (yes.. get me started..)

A (lady) friend who attends our Bible study group was sharing with us about her car that had been stolen. It was a Holden (Chev) Captiva diesel. She was telling us how somone had broken into her house, stolen the keys, taken the car about 100km then torched it. Totaled.
She was really positive about the whole experience. I would have been devistated but she seemed to be able to find some good in it. Her main thing was that it was booked in with the dealer the following week to have the timing belt replaced. They quoted her over $1,000 as, according to them, "the engine needs to be removed." Rubbish. I do a timing belt in less than three hours on one of these. She also needed new tyres and a wheel alignment so was really happy to have saved all that money. Insurance payout would have been the same after she had done all that work, so she said "think of all the money it saved". Nice to find the positives in a bad situation, even if it does potentially involve being ripped off by the dealer.

GM still makes good cars in Europe under the brand name Opel...though small with US standards and with smaller than 2litres gas engines they are very reliable. Our company pool car Opels ran to North of 400k km-s without any issues and even noteable oil consumption.

I also have a habit of looking on the Odometer of cabs when doing business in Germany and sometimes see 600k+km on German made taxis like VW and Mercedes. I have driven diesel Audis as my company cars for many hundreds k-s of km-s without the need of replacing even a light bulb. (No kidding here)

In my experience cars that you can rely on should be from where they were once invented and developed for mass production I. E. Germany or the US. (Or the other way around, no offense is meant)

You're right about the reliability of older vehicles. My 1990 Dodge D150 pickup truck with 3.9 litre V6 and 3 speed locking torque converter had 245k miles (402 km) on it when I got rid of it, not burning a drop of oil. My 1999 Chevrolet S10 with 2.2L 4-banger and manual 5 speed has 165k miles (270 km) on it, still running strong.

Our 2013 Dodge Journey with 3.6L V6 and 6 speed automatic transmission now has 65k miles (107 km) on it. But it is full of electronics. Don't know how long it will last. The simplicity of older days is gone.

Just 2 examples to support my experience with American and German cars:

1. many of you may have seen the movie Havana starring Robert Redford, set in the pre-Castro times of Cuba in the late 1950-s....with all those beautiful  Oldsmobiles, Hudsons, Studebakers, Chryslers and similar cars...you are certainly aware that those cars fashionable in Cuba those days and left there by their American owners when Castro took over,  are still up and running, many of them, with you can imagine what sort of spares supplies available in Cuba...I can only guess how many of them are beyond 1m kilometers.

2. In one of the former Middle East branch offices of our company one of our helpers drove a 1958 VW Beetle... that car was then already 30 years of age, a bit battered, but the engine still ticking like a Schaffhausen clock.

I asked the owner where he gets oil and air filters for the engine (obviously that was very unlikely to find such parts for such cars even then and especially there) and he goes: " You know this is already a very old car with lots of km-s on it, and after some time and milage they do not need filters anymore...

(N.B. I sometimes use this citation about this car, exactly my age, when asked about why I e.g. do not have a jetlag after 10+ hours flights on business trips to China and the US...and I go: " you know, after some time behind you "on the road" you really do not have a jetlag anymore)

I think the trick with that old 1958 VW Beetle was, if you change the oil often enough, filters aren't required. I'd think (but could be wrong), perhaps engine oil in those parts are reasonably cheap. In parts of the world, vehicles are so expensive that owners take extremely good care of them.

People sometimes refer to the good old days, but I remember the US cars of the 1960's. It was not unusual to do a valve grind job at 60,000 miles (100 km), engine overhaul at 100k miles (165 km). Metallurgy was not as strong then, they used softer iron for engine blocks, heads and valve seats. This is ditto for the Japanese cars. I remember them of similar metallurgy for my 1967 Datsun PL411 Bluebird sedan and my 1968 Hino Contessa. The Hino required oil changes every 1,000 km (625 miles). it was essentially a rear engine Japanese Renault. Seemed engine ran hotter than others.

However, the difference back then is with simple electrical, hydraulic and mechanical systems, the average person with a knack for working with his hands could be a mechanic. Nowadays, one needs to be a computer technician to be able to troubleshoot and work on vehicles. An added level of complexity has been added to the job requirement.

Sure thing... 2 cars before my private Audi A4 I had a VW Jetta that I could still maintain in my garage, changing oil and filters and stuff...today I do not even see the engine under the bonnet, let alone changing a bulb...(luckily that does not pop up often)..I believe car makers managed to drive car prices down by artificially pumping up service and spare parts costs instead...when I drive in an Audi maintenance shop for a regular check I seldom leave with a bill smaller than 300€-s or 350 US dollars paid....man-hours prices of mechanics in brand-name car garages are higher than those of highly qualified engineers in our company..my private Audi A4 with 15 years under his belt, and with low milage,  would sell on the pre-owned car market for the price equivalent of 10 regular checks only

That does seem really high to replace a seal, even with labor included.

Like it was mentioned have them explain to you what cost's $1000. Any mechanic worth his salt will be glad to show you what work needs to be accomplished.

That said, be careful what you divulge when you drop a vehicle off. Tell them the facts and that's it. Shady mechanics will make an assumption about your mechanical knowledge based off of what you tell them and it could impact the quoted price.

If possible, fix it yourself. It only costs your time and the part. Apart from the odd front end alignment I have never taken a car to a mechanic. I don't trust them and I am tight with money when I can do it myself. That's me though, some folks put a high price on their time.

I bet they suggested an engine replacement because it was run low on oil and that is tough on the valve train. Check the remaing oil for metallic particles. If it's clear, change the oil and press on.

Ron

Cribbs74 wrote:That does seem really high to replace a seal, even with labor included.

If possible, fix it yourself. It only costs your time and the part. Apart from the odd front end alignment I have never taken a car to a mechanic. I don't trust them and I am tight with money when I can do it myself. That's me though, some folks put a high price on their time.

I bet they suggested an engine replacement because it was run low on oil and that is tough on the valve train. Check the remaing oil for metallic particles. If it's clear, change the oil and press on.

Ron

I agree with you, if you can fix it yourself. I can't say I've never taken my vehicle to a mechanic, but I can say I haven't been back to a automobile dealership service department since my 3rd warranty visit in three months for the same problem! " No, there is nothing wrong with your brakes. The rotors are within factory specs and the vibration you feel when braking ......is normal".  I think not!  I replaced the front rotors and brake pads and enjoyed smooth stopping. Never darkened the dealership doorway again.  Drove that Ute till it died from body cancer at 23 years old. (RIP '85 El Camino)

  I'm sure the new engine quote is offered just to CYA, when after the $1000 sensor replacement , your engine does implode, due to the run low on oil problem

Hey!  Do you know why Yugo's (Hundi's) (your favorite car) come with standard electric rear window defrosters??

They help keep your hands warm when you're pushing them.....in winter.

Well, on a break from work yesterday morning I drove over to the dealership.  As I was driving, the tried to call me on my cell, but I ignored it.  I was looking forward to talking to the General Manager.  I got there and asked to talk to the GM, who was able to see me right away. Went something like this:

GM: How can I help you?
Me: Well, before I get to why I’m here today, let me start off with a little history of my relationship with this dealership.  I’ve bought an Elantra and a Tucson here, and …  (giving GM three minutes on how the dealership’s screwed me once and tried really hard to do it a second time).
GM: *Hummana, Hummana, Hummana*  Well, I just don’t understand that.  Our service department is known for its excellent service…
Me: Well, it happened.  Now let me explain why I’m here…  (Giving another two minutes on how the car came to be in their parking lot and their diagnosis of the leaky cam sensor).
GM: *Nods*
Me:   Now, please explain to me why, for a leaky cam sensor that costs $110, your mechanic is telling me I really need to replace the entire engine with a new one?
GM: *Hummana, Hummana, Hummana*  Well, I don’t know.  Where is the sensor?  It may be that there’s a lot of invasive work to be done and…
Me: *Interrupting*  The sensor is on the back of the engine at the top, and is held in place by one bolt.  I’ve been working on cars since the early 80’s.  The only reason I don’t work on my vehicles anymore is because I have a bad back and shoulders.  I can’t do the bending and twisting necessary to wrench on my cars anymore.  It’s not because I don’t know how to do the work, I’m just not physically capable anymore.  I know exactly how the engine in that Tucson is built and how it works.  So why is your mechanic telling me to replace it?
GM: Well, I certainly can’t say for sure why that would be necessary.  Have you talked to the Service Manager?
Me:  No, I have absolutely no faith in your Service Department.  That’s why I’m here talking to you.
GM:  Oh, uh, well let’s go talk to the Service Manager.
::walking over to the Service Department where GM talks to SM::
SM:  How can I help you?
Me:  (Again giving abbreviated history) … and now I need you to explain to me why your mechanic says I need to replace the entire engine, please.
SM: I’m sorry, I need to look up your work order.  ::digs through papers on the desk::  Well, there’s nothing here about replacing the engine.
Me:  That’s what your mechanic told me I needed to do.
SM:  Let me go talk to the mechanic.  ::ambles off to talk to someone outside, then returns::  Well, what he meant was, we could replace the bad sensor, but we can’t guarantee that the engine won’t throw a rod or spin a bearing in the future.  The only way to guarantee that the engine won’t have a problem in the future is if we replace the entire engine.
Me: That’s not how he said it over the phone.  He said I NEED to replace the engine.  Why would I put a $6,000 engine into a car that blue books at just under $5K?
SM:  Well, some people do that. We could just replace the sensor.
Me:  A thousand dollars to replace the sensor, and you still won’t guarantee it would last a year?
SM:  What do you mean a thousand?
Me:  That’s what the mechanic told me it would cost, and you wouldn’t guarantee it.
SM:  ::scurries off to talk to the mechanic, and comes back::  What he meant was that you could dump a thousand dollars into the car by replacing the sensor, hoses, belts, wires and stuff, and we still couldn’t guarantee the car will last.  The only way we can guarantee the car will last is if you buy a new engine.
Me:  The car doesn’t need new belts, new hoses, and new wires.  I’m not even sure it needs a new sensor.  It may just need the current one tightened back down.  But I’ll give the benefit of the doubt and replace the sensor anyway.
SM: Well, we certainly could replace just the sensor.  But I can’t guarantee that the engine won’t have other problems later…
Me:  I understand perfectly.  Just replace the sensor.
SM:  ::digging through the paperwork again::  I don’t see a price for the sensor.  Let me go find out.
Me: ::as he’s getting up::  I looked the sensor up on the Hyundai Parts website last night.  You’d charge me $110 for an OEM sensor, so you’ll obviously get it for less than that.
SM:  Ummm…
Me: And it’s not hard to get to, so if your mechanic is half-way decent, he can do the job in 30-45 minutes.
SM: Ummm… Okay, let me go talk to the mechanic. ::scurries off::
SM:  ::returns:: Okay, yeah.  We should be able to replace the sensor for about $200.  But we don’t have one on hand, so you’ll have to wait to pick it up on Thursday.
Me: Please.


Man, they just gotta hate a customer who know what he’s talking about.  $6000 down to $200.  No bonus this week for them.

The Tickled Mark

oops!   You forget that the Dealers utilize "flat rate" pricing. That is where they are able to charge you their $$ labor rate for the "time" the flat rate manual says the job takes. Doesn't matter that the mechanic can do it in 15 minutes, the manual says 1.25 hours, you get charged 1.25 hours. I know a mechanic from a now obsolete/defunct Pontiac dealership that really, really, misses bringing home 75-80 hours of book rate pay in a 40 hour work week.  

I love the Internet! Just googled "98 Mazda B4000 stuck in park" and quickly found a forum that had pictures and descriptions of the little torx screw that loosened up on the lower end of the shifter tube on the steering column. 20 minutes later, 10 minutes looking for my "torx" bits, she shifts out of park just like new!

Good you got them to move in the right direction, Mark. For me, I've just found it easier to find someone who shoots straight and does the job right the first time. They are out there, it took me a little asking around and checking, but I found them.

Regarding dealer mark up, dishonesty aside, they have a higher burden cost due to the size of their facility. Rolled into those costs are amortised building mortgage, property leases, utilities, property taxes, franchise fees, insurance, security services, etc. Hence this is why their basic labour rates will be higher than for a smaller independent garage.

batjac wrote:These people LITERALLY think I’m an idiot.

Or at least they hoped you were.
Good for you I hope the sensor is all it is and you keep on rolling. I have a Santa Fe as my aircraft carrier, and I like it. The 275 horse V6 is faster than I ever imagined(I tell everybody it's 300hp Lol). And we had a 2008 generation V6 Sonata that was fine, and my son has a good one of the same gen, but it's a 2010 I think. None of ours have had high enough mileage to prove any superb quality, but I have a $100 deductable B-B service plan that will likely last another 65k miles till I hit 130k.

Hey Mark, I'm really glad that you went head-to-head with the dealer; and did your homework. They're in the business of making money.. period. The amount of consumers who will pay what "they say" is required.. covers their cost to stay in business. Manufacturer warranty repairs pay the technician next to nothing. Their mechanics need to make the out-of-warranty "flat-rate" hours.. to put food on the table at home. It's as simple as that. When your vehicle is out of warranty.. it becomes time to say goodbye to the dealer.. and find a reputable mechanic/business-owner to advise you on your vehicle's condition. He doesn't have as much overhead expense.. and he counts on your return-business/referrals to put food on his family's plate. They're out there.. you just need to ask around.

The early Hyundai (mid 80's Excel's) were notorious for a leaking oil-pressure switch. They also encountered broken rocker-shafts in the valve-train; resulting in a loud noise that made many owners think that they had a blown engine. I was a Hyundai Service-Advisor back in those days.. and felt relieved to tell my customer that their car would need to stay over-night.. but would be repaired within a day.. for the cost of the new rocker-shaft, a valve-cover gasket + labor. IIRC it was less than $300.00 back then. There were MANY Excel owners who loved their cars.. and put well-over 200K mi. on them.

There are times where a dealer does good. When I was in Gallup, NM 7 years ago, I had problems with reliability on my 1999 Chevy S10 Pickup. It was on its new 2nd aftermarket fuel pump that I installed. Engine was running like it had no power. I first checked around, and the Chevy dealer was highly rated by BBB with very few complaints and all resolved.

Come find out, no aftermarket fuel pumps work on that truck. Mechanic told me the problem, low fuel pressure, pump was failing. Dealer installed an OEM pump. Labor hours were very reasonable, mechanic dropped the tank and changed it out in less than an hour. OEM pump was $400 versus aftermarket at $100 - $150. 7 years later, truck is still running strong.

I was prepared to understand the issue already. About 15 years prior, I ended up replacing the aftermarket McMaster fuel pump 3 times on my 1992 Dodge Caravan, all under warrantee. The first 2 were defective. Autozone salesman told me that they were having a lot of problems with McMaster pumps. Sometimes one had to bite the bullet and buy an OEM one at higher cost. I got to where I could drop the fuel tank, change out the pump, reinstall tank in less than 45 minutes.

I had no problems changing out the electric fuel pump on my 1990 Dodge D150 truck. The 2 aftermarket ones worked fine. I changed them out every 100,000 miles, because I didn't want to suffer a failure in rural New Mexico. I don't know why there are quality control issues with some models of pumps. Almost makes it worthwhile to just spend the extra bucks and stick OEM.