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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:39 pm

robot797 wrote:Why gloves ?

And I don't have room for a valve


As you wish.

With a glove, you can turn your flywheel manually and be able to start the engine manually. This will be another great advantage to your design. Your flywheel looks big and heavy. I guess, you may rotate the wheel continuously, one hand turn after another. This way, you do NOT need a battery which is a great goal in any project. You can still have the battery option as well as an electric drill option with a wheel with which you can touch the flywheel and also start the engine. This way you will have the three starting options : your way with a battery, an electric way from the mains via a drill with a wheel whose axel is inserted in the drill bit part of the drill and manually by heavily rotating the flywheel. Thus, the only option which you would not have is the option to change gears which is not a big deal.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Yet another unsuccessful attempt. Yet another 4 hours.

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:33 pm

Yet another unsuccessful attempt. Yet another 4 hours.

The fuel was exactly as the standard one which I have been using. The belts too. Tried a few, even a loose one with guides and a loose one double folded to make one stronger.

Without the dynamo, the engine starts perfectly OK at various settings including Air Valve : fully open, Fuel Needle Valve : 4 turns open, Compression : low or near high. With these settings, once the engine is running, the engine is able to overcome any obstacle : Once the engine is running, lowering the compression makes the engine suck fuel and air better and work with strong loads. I stuck a finger to the pulley and the engine continued until I got burned from the friction. Then I used a wooden stick to try to stop the pulley and the propeller screw. Works OK. Applied all the pressure I can to the wooden stick. Still worked like there is nothing.

The guides work OK and prevent the belt from jumping.

Even in case the engine was to start this would not make much of a difference because, to start the engine with the dynamo at 2 to 1 engine to dynamo pulley is immensely difficult. As explained, this is because neither the engine nor the dynamo have any REAL bearings. Axel housings, whether metal or not, are NOT bearings. THERE IS NOTHING TO BEAR THE AXEL. Bearing I something which one is suppose to put between the axel and the housing. People still, however, use the word bearing for a simple hole, i. e. for the axel housing. Stupid is to call the so called bearings which are between the crankshaft and the piston rod of a car. These are not bearings. These are nothing but a housing hole. Whatever you put on the housing hole you still get a hole and nothing else. The same as when the piston rod attachment was made of the same metal monolithic. Still a hole, still nothing to BEAR the rotation.

Anyway, because of a lack of real bearings, regardless of whether the rotor is housed by metal half circles or a full or plastic or whatever, when a high tension belt is used, the engine axel and the dynamo axel ( rotor ) are pulled on to the other and make the system impossible to turn. Add the heavy rotor and you get even more impossible to turn system.

This is why I shall discontinue any attempts to start without some kind of clutch. The one I have posted can be modified to be hand held with two or one big pulley and I may try this one.

I have also found another way. I may put a few pulleys on the engine. Now I have two next to each other : one is 0.7mm, the other 3cm. With these or other pulleys, as long as I have a few, I can use the guides to push the belt and perform a “ bicycle style gear switching “ with the belt going from one to another. Thus, I hope I can start the engine with a clutch or without and use the tiniest pulleys first and then go to the bigger ones at zero electrical load but with the dynamo on.

Anyway, for any project to be successful, use dynamos with “ low torque “ i. e. low mechanical resistance when not electrically loaded and with zero friction, i. e. with a REAL ( ball, cylinder, barrel, whatever in between two rings ) bearing as well as a grippy LOOSE belt. Guides OK.

The same applies for straight coupling because, when the engine rotates, the engine axel as well as the dynamo rotor are pushed all over the hole walls by the centrifugal as well as by the simple movement forces. They still touch the walls and not only touch but file them like a drill.

I think people who use Cox engines for anything, may wish to use the same settings with low compression to ensure load independent or load overcoming performance of the engine, for example, those who fly big propellers or ships may wish to use this settings at low compression to heat up the engine after start up reliably, regardless of the huge load the big propeller puts on. After a while, you may switch to your favourite settings.

In regards to the project : the project would be on hold for a while until I find a way to clutch or equivalent or similar.

I hesitate whether to do an electric start like robot797. This way, I would have something rinning to test the dynamo output. Then I will think of clutching.

I do not know yet and I do not care for now. I am sick and tired of garbage and I have a lot of this.

Centrifugal clutch would be OK BUT THESE ARE VERY NON STANDARD AS FAR THE ATTACHMENT GOES. I would prefer a simple wheel which mounts on the propeller screw and, on the wheel, at a distance, all other components so this clutch can be attached to ANY axel. In case I had such, I would use this on the dynamo rather than the engine.

The ones I have seen for RC cars are garbage.

There are good REAL ones for loan mowers, saws, etcetera but these are very big. I may have a look as to whether I can use one.

Also, I cannot understand why the RC engines manufacturers not have many options. OK. Spring start is an option. So is a removable hand crank option. People would be able to start their airplanes with a hand crank as should be. Just a simple attachment. Once the engine is on, the hand crank can be removed. Just like cars used to be. The other option is a pull start. Another simple attachment which can even be removable. I may look into a possibility to use a pull start from whatever. A removable hand crank with gears would have been a great advantage even for airplanes.

Anyway, I have had enough. Any ideas are welcome, though.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Grease

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:55 pm

Forgot to mention : put tons of grease. Measured conductivity. Non conductive. Put inside the dynamo and on the pulleys.

Looks like this grease, a car grease, has an opposite effect : gluey instead of slippery. On accession was able to slip the belt quarter turn or so. Mostly not. May try Vaseline or anything which is slippery and not gluey.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Statue Report

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:05 pm

Found some clutches online. Here is one. Please, comment. I do not know at what RPM the clutch engages.

http://m.aliexpress.com/item/2005801152.html?productSubject=1-set-Flywheel-Clutchbell-14T-10096-Tooth-Clutch-Bell-Ball-Bearings-10-5-4mm-for-1&productSubject=1-set-Flywheel-Clutchbell-14T-10096-Tooth-Clutch-Bell-Ball-Bearings-10-5-4mm-for-1&recommendVersion=1&productId=2005801152&productId=2005801152&productId=2005801152&product=%7B%22adminSeq%22%3A221273353%2C%22aeProductSKUEsiDTOs%22%3A%5B%7B%22skuPrice%22%3A11.99%7D%5D%2C%22isSkuProperty%22%3Afalse%2C%22lot%22%3Afalse%2C%22multiUnitName%22%3A%22sets%22%2C%22numberPerLot%22%3A1%2C%22oddUnitName%22%3A%22set%22%2C%22offlineDate%22%3A1430896720000%2C%22productId%22%3A2005801152%2C%22productMaxPrice%22%3A11.99%2C%22productMinPrice%22%3A11.99%2C%22seotitle%22%3A%221+set+Flywheel+Clutchbell+14T+10096+Tooth+Clutch+Bell+%26+Ball+Bearings+10*5*4mm+for+1%2F10+rc+Nitro+model+car+Engine++parts%22%2C%22shopNumber%22%3A1304712%7D&category=%7B%22categoryName%22%3A%22Parts+%26+Accessories%22%2C%22categoryUrl%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fcategory%2F200002649%2Fparts-accessories.html%22%7D&tracelog=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail

I am also in the process of installing components for external power for the starter.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:01 pm

i dont know if they would grip on the right rpm
but hey make a adapter and try it
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:09 pm

robot797 wrote:i dont know if they would grip on the right rpm
but hey make a adapter and try it


Thanks. Do they sell any adapters?

Do they sell anything to grip the rotor?

The clutch RPM can be changed by changing and adjusting the spring. Yet, I am sure people on this forum would know at what RPM this clutch grips. There are so many who have cars. I am not asking for exact values. I will be happy to know the RPM where their clutches grip. Very approximately.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Tiny Clutch

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:13 pm

I have also found a msrvelous company which makes tiny clutches and, looks like, they even have a manual one.

Here is their website :http://www.tinyclutch.com

Anyone knows anything?
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:21 pm

they would work great but there rpm limmet is to low for our engines

7000 is the max for there clutches

the manual clutch looks awsome though
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:29 pm

robot797 wrote:they would work great but there rpm limmet is to low for our engines

7000 is the max for there clutches

the manual clutch looks awsome though


I am not concerned with the 7000 RPM. The engine can reach around 10000 RPM without any load and when the pope is near to pray.

With a load, the engine can only reach around 7000RPM.

When the load is low, I would not much need high RPM which I would need at high loads only where, the engine cannot reach more than 7000 RPM.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Status Report

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:10 pm

Got some plastic spools for sewing machine. There were metalic too.

May use these for the dynamo as well as for the manual belt fork which would hold the belt as the engine spins and gradually touch the engine pulley to introduce a clutch effect. Because I do not have bearings, I am not sure whether the engine would overcome the dynamo and the two spools resistance. Probably not.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Status Report

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:18 pm

Attached the components for the electrical start on the panel. No electrical connections yet.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Status Report

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:32 pm

Connected the electrical circuit for an electrical start.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Question on Polarity and Direction of DC Motors and Generators

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:38 pm

In case a dynamo generates a DC voltage with a given polarity, what happens when voltage with the same polarity is applied to the dynamo ( now a motor )? Does the motor rotates in the same direction in which the dynamo was rotated? I think the answer is yes but I am not sure.

Here is a simplified version of the question : When one rotates a dynamo counter clockwise, one gets a voltage with a polarity of : a plus on the red wire and a minus on the black wire. Now, stop the rotation of the dynamo. Apply positive ( plus ) voltage from a battery to the red wire and a negative voltage ( minus ) on the black wire. What is the direction in which the motor rotates? Counter clockwise ?

I will be happy to receive your answer before I connect the panel to the dynamo.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:19 pm

Yes the dynamo generates the same polarity
And reverse the poles and it runs the other way
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:20 am

robot797 wrote:Yes the dynamo generates the same polarity
And reverse the poles and it runs the other way


Thanks. I do not seem to understand what you have said but I think you have said the motor will rotate in the same direction as the dynamo when the same polarity voltage is applied to the motor as the polarity of the voltage generated by the dynamo.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Starter Flywheel

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:00 am

I would also like to explore the possibility to use a starter wheel of 20cm diameter.

Must be heavy to be able to continuously rotate by hand but light for the engine to work. And very thin.

I do have an Aluminium bar as well as an 8 inch Cox Texaco propeller which I can use but I would not be able to spin them continuously.

However, I think I now remember I have been able to start the system with 2 to 1 pulley ratio with the 8 inch propeller. May try again.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty The Tiny Clutch Company

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:01 pm

I have exchanged emails with the company which makes tiny clutches. They do not make clutches. They make mechanical switches, RPM controlled. The sitches do not slip. They are either off or on.

To clarify : a clutch is a mechanical potentioneter which goes from zero to a given value. The mechanical switches are like electrical switches. In this case, they are switched on or off by the RPM.

I have never heard of anyone calling these switches clutches.

So far, the RC car centrifugal clutch is the only one I have found. The problem is I do not know the RPM when the clutch engages. There are other clutches for HPI Baja which engage at 8000 RPM. I am afraid the one I have found may also engage at very high RPM because most of the engines are glow engines and they work at incredibly high RPM, hence the clutch engages at very high RPM. Theoretically, I am able to change the clutch engagement RPM by changing the clutch's spring but, practically, I do not know whether I can find such a long and thin spring with a given spring action force.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:26 pm

hello i am back

sorry for my bad post earlyer

what i wanted to say

the engine will start in the same direction the generator is running in
and the voltage will stay the same polairety


if one were to reverse the polarety the same would happen in reverse

i got my buck converter today (yay)

and a little pressent that i did not ordered

a mini buck converter
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-3A-DC-DC-Adjustable-Converter-Step-down-Power-Supply-Module-replace-LM2596-/251909212465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3aa6f58931
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:16 pm

robot797 wrote:hello i am back

sorry for my bad post earlyer

what i wanted to say

the engine will start in the same direction the generator is running in
and the voltage will stay the same polairety


if one were to reverse the polarety the same would happen in reverse

i got my buck converter today (yay)

and a little pressent that i did not ordered

a mini buck converter
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-3A-DC-DC-Adjustable-Converter-Step-down-Power-Supply-Module-replace-LM2596-/251909212465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3aa6f58931


Thank you for your answers and for sharing the information on the converters. I will definitely look for a possibility to get one or more of this.

I have also purchased standard 12VDC to USB 5V car cigarette lighter converters. Once you have your 12VDC regulator on, you can use these off the shelf converters sold anywhere. However, you can also purchase the same type of converter you have now but for 5VDC. A similar IC with the same number and a suffix 5V is available and, I would assume, they make them and sell them readily available too. This way, you can convert most any output from your dynamo into 5VDC without going through the 12V converter, I. e., you can have the two of them and none of them depends on the other.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:33 pm

lets first see how many amps i can pull bevore it shutsdown

i have 2 ic's that can make 12V (i can set them to watever i want)

and i can pull 6A max with both of them hooked up

now to find a load

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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Possible Reasons for the Unsuccessful Attempts

Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:37 pm

I have just read the notes on how I started the system ( engine and dynamo ) with 2 to 1 ( engine to dynamo ) pulley ratio. Here are the differences :

1. The most important difference is the 8 inch Cox Texaco propeller.
2. I am not sure how accurately I have measured the contents of the fuel but, looks like, with a load, the engine tolerates higher amount of Cetone Booster which helps the engine maintain the start.
3. I mainly relied on a high tension belt ( the blue elastic rubber band ) before. I tried now too.
4. I started the engine without the dynamo first to heat up. I did so during the second attempt but this arrangement was more closely used during the first ( the successful ) attempt.

I hope to be successful with the 8 inch Cox Texaco propeller.
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:53 pm

robot797 wrote:lets first see how many amps i can pull bevore it shutsdown

i have 2 ic's that can make 12V (i can set them to watever i want)

and i can pull 6A max with both of them hooked up

now to find a load



You will be able to get close to 6A or more.

Try to avoid immediate stress : before attaching the load, reduce the RPM. Attach the load. The engine would not need so much power when the RPM ( the voltage ) is lower. The power is lower too. Then slowly increase the RPM. The problem in this scenario is the regulator will always try to regulate the output to 12VDC when the dynamo is at 4.5VDC or higher. You may try to attach the load when the output of the dynamo is very low, around 2V or less. I think your setup would allow you to do so with the engine working continuously and reliably at very low RPM.

The best for you may be to get a potentiometer and attach AFTER the regulator in series to the load. Put the potentiometer to maximum and attach the load with the engine running. Then SLOWLY reduce the resistance of the potentiometer until you reach zero. Now your load is fully attached to the regulator and you have avoided the immediate stress.

Make sure you get a higher power potentiometer with values of 0 to 50 or 0 to 100 Ohms. The best would be to get a 50W and higher one as this is close to the maximal power. You will also not use the maximal power applied on the potentiometer because you will also have some load attached.

In case you have various loads, start with around 30 Ohms and go lower switching the loads. You can use 10W resistors in various combinations or light bulbs. One 12W interior car light bulbs ( non LED ) will have around 1Ohm resistance. Put a few of these in sequence or get lower power light bulbs from the automotive shops. You can also use incandescent light bulbs in various combinations to get some high resistance and then switch to car interior lights.

You can also use high power stove heaters or any kind of room heaters. Some of them would probably be 220V, 2.2kW in Europe, thus 22 Ohms or around.

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Post  robot797 Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:34 pm

i am gonna do the tests soom i have ordered something cool

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-Tether-Boat-Car-Cox-Thimble-Drome-Gas-Engine-Flywheel-NOS-330-/261851745809
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Post  StevenStanleyBayes Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:55 pm

robot797 wrote:i am gonna do the tests soom i have ordered something cool

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-Tether-Boat-Car-Cox-Thimble-Drome-Gas-Engine-Flywheel-NOS-330-/261851745809


This is an excellent flywheel. You can get the same or similar with the clutch I have posted.

You may wish to look for a pull starter to use with your system.
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

Post  robot797 Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:02 pm

i have many cox pull startes but none will fit the hexagon on the end of the engine

if i were to do that i would harden a crank that fits the pull starter and design a generator arount that

the clutch for the pull starter would also act as the flywheel



mmmmmmmmmm


now i need a second frame en dynamo Sad
robot797
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Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 19 Empty Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

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