New power plant for the satan

JPvelo Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:46 am

Golden bee case, killer/venom crank, tee dee cylinder,fine thread needle valve, and a star shaped Mylar reed. Will try and get performance numbers tomorrow. If I get consistent runs I will switch to a nelson type insert head.
https://i.imgur.com/jRK5H.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/usNsj.jpg

Ken Cook Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:11 pm

Consistent runs are going to take place if you have good fuel delivery and draw. The orientation of that spraybar in the production backplate can assist in achieving good runs. I believe it was Larry Renger who suggested to press the spraybar out and orientate the hole about 15 deg. to the side for the best performance. The Nelson plug and head combo is going to require at least 4 head gaskets initially, otherwise the engine will be over compressed. In my opinion, the 1702 head will work equally as well without playing with head shims. The downside is the longevity isn't going to be as good as a Nelson setup. The Nelson plugs are half the cost of a high comp head. Ken

**Cribbs74** Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:14 pm

Looks evil. Let us know.

JPvelo Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:18 pm

Thanks for the info Ken, will do.

JPvelo Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:40 pm

.049 was super tight and ran like crap so I switched to .051. Only getting high 17's with 5x3 and 25%. headed to field now will hopefully post video.
https://i.imgur.com/YJC87.jpg

crankbndr Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:59 pm

Great your able to fly today, winds here are 25 knots W maybe I could fly a kite.
Let us know how it goes.

JPvelo Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:20 pm

crankbndr wrote:Great your able to fly today, winds here are 25 knots W maybe I could fly a kite.
Let us know how it goes.

I know people in most parts of the country don't want to hear this but the main problem with the weather around here is that its still to damn hot in the noonday sun.
And now a cautionary tale about wood screws, the surging you hear before the engine dies is it hanging on by one screw.

Drilled new holes and hardened them with cya will probably fly again later after I get some crap done around the house and it cools off some.

Ken Cook Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:24 pm

I certainly wish I had that weather today. We had 15 mph winds with gusts over 20 and rain. BUT!!!!!!!, we endured and the gods of flight let us get airborne today. Sounds like your getting a pretty decent flying machine there. Congrats. Ken

JPvelo Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:27 pm

Having some serious fuel draw problems. Modified my split tube pressure inlet:
https://i.imgur.com/cWz3t.jpg
With a tee fitting where the split is. I don't know if that is the issue or if the fine thread needle on this motor doesn't like to draw fuel in maneuvers for some reason. Whatever the cause this was the result:

The Satan is already on the mend but it might be time to try one of rustys bladders.

**RknRusty** Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:01 pm

I hate it when that happens. It's why I gave up on tanked Bees. I never have tried a bladder on a reedy but I hear it works fine. It's probably harder to accidentally flood.

Regarding your comment about your screws coming loose, I use epoxy on my screws and use a soldering iron on the heads to release the glue when I want to remove them. You just have to give the screws an acetone bath to get the oil off or use new ones every time. It holds as solid as a rock. In fact I have snapped a head off trying to remove a cold screw. It keeps the holes from wearing out so fast. On my Satan, I put 2-56 blind nuts behind the firewall and use black hex machine screws. You just have to make sure they aren't too long, or have an adequate relief behind them. I also fix them with a tiny touch of epoxy. I like that better than thread locker.

**Cribbs74** Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Oh crap!

Sorry man, I could feel the frustration when you tossed the handle. I saw some bladder runs today and it looks easy. Rusty supplied me with a starting kit an I have some good ideas on how to install it all in the wing. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Don't quit now!

Ron

gcb Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:24 pm

cribbs74 wrote:... I saw some bladder runs today and it looks easy. Rusty supplied me with a starting kit an I have some good ideas on how to install it all in the wing. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Don't quit now!

Ron

Ron,

I have not yet needed to use bladders but something I have picked up during online conversations over the years is to ALWAYS wear eye protection because ALL bladders will eventually fail and you may get sprayed with fuel.

George

**Cribbs74** Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:34 pm

Thanks George, good point! That nitro burns.

**RknRusty** Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:24 pm

I always have a spray bottle of water with me when I work with bladders too. Even if they don't pop, if you let go of the fill tube by accident it will pee at you like a baby boy getting a diaper change.

JPvelo Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:30 pm

Rusty, I was looking at the setup on your Satan. I think I will do the same but substitute a balloon for the mesh bag to contain any burst.

**RknRusty** Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:37 am

JPvelo wrote:Rusty, I was looking at the setup on your Satan. I think I will do the same but substitute a balloon for the mesh bag to contain any burst.

If you're thinking about extra safety, sheer panty hose material gives you good containment from spray, and allows you to still see the bladder. I have the tail of my container anchored to the tail boom with a piece of Dacron that's hard to see in the picture because I painted it black. The front is anchored to the motor mount. So the container stays in place while the bladder grows and shrinks freely inside of it. 1/2 to 3/4oz should give you as much run time as you want. If I put a full ounce in mine, sometimes I'm glad when it runs out of fuel.

Notice I don't have a fuel filter on the Satan. The combination of my Dubro filter and the attachment line took up too much room and I couldn't get a good pinch spot. I'm going to try to find a smaller filter. I don't like running the Tee Dee without one, but the reedy isn't so critical. I do have a filter on the tube I stick on the syringe to draw up the fuel. Then I just pull the fill tube off and stick the syringe into the line to the engine. That should work just fine for the reedy.

As I write this, it occurs to me that pulling the line off the engine nipple isn't convenient on yours. You might want to add a barbed extension from the engine nipple to make plugging and unplugging the line easier. Did you order the orange Luer-Lok tips for the syringes?

JPvelo Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:24 am

Yep, ordered two leur loc fittings, two white bladder nipples, a tee fitting, a check valve, and three feet of tubing.

JPvelo Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:49 pm

Here's what I came up with for a bladder. Probably won't test until Monday at the earliest.
https://i.imgur.com/KGR6H.jpg

**RknRusty** Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:15 pm

That looks perfect, JP. I can't wait to see it run. I recommend tying a safety string to your five dollar check valve so you don't lose it in the unlikely event you crash and parts fly. If you have any of those soft plastic nipples that come with wedge tanks, you could cap it off after filling and when not in use. Oh, and don't forget to check the CG with a full tank.

When you get the cranking routine down, be sure and post a How to light off a Reedy with a Pressure Bladder article. Meanwhile I'll try different things with your NVAs. I might make a remote valve out of one of them.

After I run out of my black mesh, I'll have to use some of my wife's discarded hose too. I'll try to get some sexy looking hose for it. Next time she wears it, I'll rip it off of her. Yeah, great idea! New power plant for the satan Biggrin

I made a movie of my Satan with its new power plant flying today. It flies like a rocket with the Tee Dee.

JPvelo Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:20 pm

Can't wait to see the video. I'm sitting on a beam mount little Satan kit and torn between that and the junior for my next build.

**RknRusty** Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:41 pm

JPvelo wrote:Can't wait to see the video. I'm sitting on a beam mount little Satan kit and torn between that and the junior for my next build.

If you go with the Jr. you may want to consider ways to build light without compromising the structure. Ken pointed some things out that I didn't know.

Ken Cook wrote: Here's my take on the Jr Satan. I'm actually in the midst of a rebuild currently. I do this for nostalgia and fun. This is a pretty old school plane and I'm not expecting any real performance from it. These older planes were quite limited in turn. This was mostly due to the narrow wingspan and thin wings. The real problem with using the TD .09 is weight. Any model that uses a center spar like the JR Satan, the Voodoo, the Ringmaster, the Jr Ring etc is useless. What that piece of wood does is add weight, rips out all of your other ribs in the event and of a crash, and removes the integrity of the rib structure due to the square holes made in them that just causes stress risers. So if the kit has it, remove it. It doesn't add any strength to the wing just something to glue the now weak ribs onto.

The solid leading edge and trailing edge provides the strength, and this can be lightened considerably. I use a core box router bit and remove 2/3 of that material from the backside. The skid plate on the engine nacelle/doubler is 1/8", That could be swapped out for 1/16". The bearers on the plane are immensely oversized at 3/8" x 1/2". That certainly could be cut in half or just use 1/4" x 1/4". This thing is a Sherman tank. I personally would suck the engine back trying to get the cylinder as close to the leading edge as possible. Wings in general are plagued by their faster turning rate and therefore when using hard tanks the fuel runs away from the pickup. A bladder setup is lighter than a metal tank. What I'm suggesting here, there's a lot of fat that can be trimmed here. Tapering the booms and stab etc. All this will keep the plane light. Then I would say yes, the TD .09 is a capable engine here. It isn't the size that's the problem but the overall package.

As with any wing, bladders work and are simple, light and generally problem free other than them popping from time to time. The TD .09 with no fine threaded needle valve would probably not fair well with the stock unit. A remote needle like the OS #1A would probably be in order. A fine threaded remote assembly could also be made using a 128 TPI spraybar and needle from a product engine. I've done that as well . Ken

If you want to put a Tee Dee or Medallion on your radial mount Satan you could use the backplate mount like I did.

New power plant for the satan Texas_radial_mount_typical_small

I think that's a more rugged setup too, provided your firewall is strong and fiberglassed, which yours appears to be. I've seen the glass in your picture.

**Cribbs74** Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:44 pm

That's a healthy sized bladder JP. How many oz is it?

JPvelo Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:54 pm

cribbs74 wrote:That's a healthy sized bladder JP. How many oz is it?

The bladder is made from about 1 3/4 inch of tubing with one ounce of air pushed into it.

**Cribbs74** Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:09 am

JPvelo wrote:
cribbs74 wrote:That's a healthy sized bladder JP. How many oz is it?
The bladder is made from about 1 3/4 inch of tubing with one ounce of air pushed into it.

I guess I had that coming. I suppose the size of the bladder depends on how much you pump into it. I hope it works well for you!

Ron

**RknRusty** Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:14 am

JPvelo wrote:
cribbs74 wrote:That's a healthy sized bladder JP. How many oz is it?
The bladder is made from about 1 3/4 inch of tubing with one ounce of air pushed into it.

That one will probably hold 2 ounces. Believe it or not, that'll be more time than you want to fly. I usually use 3/4oz and get pretty good runs. Much more than that and I get complacent and take risks that get me way too close to crashing. In fact I did have a wheel-hit today. Whopped it at the bottom of a triple loop. Luckily no wood hit, just the prop and the front end got all covered with dirt. The flight in my uploading video is about an ounce, so that'll give you an idea of the flight time. And I think the reedy will run a minute longer too.

29 minutes left on the upload.

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