Crankcase styles

daviddiag Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:42 pm

I see die cast crankcases for sale and saw another reference that they require a different gasket. Are they interchangeable with the extruded cases? Are there advantages to their use? What do you guys think of them?

daviddiag Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:01 am

daviddiag wrote:I see die cast crankcases for sale and saw another reference that they require a different gasket. Are they interchangeable with the extruded cases? Are there advantages to their use? What do you guys think of them?

Did some digging and found Bernies post on the history of the die cast crank case. I don,t find anything on performance or how they compare to the extruded cases. Are they lighter, stronger, weaker, heavier? They look cool,and the fact that a Pratt and Whitney engineer was involved is very cool. How do they hold up and perform? Has anyone one spent time exploring them?

gcb Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:18 am

If I understand the story correctly, the cast crankcases were an attempt to get less costly crankcases. Although they worked well, they were more costly so the idea was dropped and Cox just used what they had made.

Can't speak for performance...don't have any. :-(

George

**Admin** Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:24 am

for performance, I have heard that they can wear out faster than the extruded ones. I have not seen that for myself as the ones I have rarely get used. They do work and the last time I ran a cast sure start and an extruded sure start, they seemed to be running at the same rpm.

**RknRusty** Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:25 am

They must weigh differently, but lighter or heavier??? I don't know. I've wondered too. Bernie's wife Xena entered a die-cast engine, the Pink Panther, in the Tach Race and it competed admirably. Admittedly, I think it was a slow day for everyone's entries that day. I would think the bearings in the extruded case are harder and more uniform. The crankcase gaskets are not interchangeable with the extruded engines.

EXModelEngines Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:37 pm

The cast crankcases will yield just about the same performance as a traditional bar-stock crankcase. As mentioned, they were originally designed to save money, but ended up costing more due to the secondary processes being more time consuming that a traditional bar-stock crankcase.

The only disadvantage I have heard is they do not wear as well as a traditional bar-stock one. While saying this, please keep in mind this is over a very long period of time, and not after 10 or 20 runs.

Regards, Matt

dckrsn Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:57 am

I weighed 4 different cranckcases this morning, and this is what I found.
Thin taper 6.553g
Cast case 6.977g
Thick taper 7.318g
Surestart 7.351g
Crankcase styles Pictur11

**RknRusty** Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:01 am

And now we know... the rest of the story. Good day.

Mark Boesen Sat May 05, 2012 11:29 pm

EXModelEngines wrote:The cast crankcases will yield just about the same performance as a traditional bar-stock crankcase. As mentioned, they were originally designed to save money, but ended up costing more due to the secondary processes being more time consuming that a traditional bar-stock crankcase.

The only disadvantage I have heard is they do not wear as well as a traditional bar-stock one. While saying this, please keep in mind this is over a very long period of time, and not after 10 or 20 runs.

Regards, Matt

It's true the first time Cox attempted to produce the cast crankcase it was an attempt to lower cost, but it was the high rejection rate that made it prohibitive, not the additional manufacturing. When Cox sold off the tooling to manufacture the extruded case they had no choice but to build cast cases.

**RknRusty** Sat May 05, 2012 11:35 pm

As my personal preference, I wouldn't buy a cast crankcase. But that's just because to me they look ugly and cheap. I'm sure they run okay.

dinsdale Sun May 06, 2012 3:27 am

RknRusty wrote:As my personal preference, I wouldn't buy a cast crankcase. But that's just because to me they look ugly and cheap. I'm sure they run okay.

Yes, I agree with you. They don't look, "Cox", do they. However, economics might get the better of me eventually. The cast cases are usually cheaper.

**RknRusty** Sun May 06, 2012 7:46 am

One Babe Bee, Really, Dins? I just read your avie info. You should check out this cool site I found called eBay. lol!

dinsdale Sun May 06, 2012 8:25 am

RknRusty wrote:One Babe Bee, Really, Dins? I just read your avie info. You should check out this cool site I found called eBay.

Well, that was true until 9 days ago. I received a new Surestart, plus I have an .074 in transit somewhere twixt here and the US. I primarily want engines to use, not just collect, and I also have 3 larger engines - OS 10, ASP .21 and a Leo .46. Hopefully an Irvine .46 on its way soon too.

**RknRusty** Sun May 06, 2012 1:18 pm

dinsdale wrote:
RknRusty wrote:One Babe Bee, Really, Dins? I just read your avie info. You should check out this cool site I found called eBay.
Well, that was true until 9 days ago. I received a new Surestart, plus I have an .074 in transit somewhere twixt here and the US. I primarily want engines to use, not just collect, and I also have 3 larger engines - OS 10, ASP .21 and a Leo .46. Hopefully an Irvine .46 on its way soon too.

Well, alright then.

dckrsn Sun May 06, 2012 3:05 pm

dinsdale wrote:
RknRusty wrote:As my personal preference, I wouldn't buy a cast crankcase. But that's just because to me they look ugly and cheap. I'm sure they run okay.
Yes, I agree with you. They don't look, "Cox", do they. However, economics might get the better of me eventually. The cast cases are usually cheaper.

I will say the cast SureStart is pretty ugly, but(big but) I just
entered a cast case engine in the engine of the month thingy.
So there. What?

Bob

andrew Sun May 06, 2012 3:30 pm

dckrsn wrote:
I will say the cast SureStart is pretty ugly, but(big but) I just
entered a cast case engine in the engine of the month thingy.
So there.
Bob

Even ugly folks need love!! Very Happy

dckrsn Sun May 06, 2012 3:36 pm

andrew wrote:
dckrsn wrote:
I will say the cast SureStart is pretty ugly, but(big but) I just
entered a cast case engine in the engine of the month thingy.
So there.
Bob

Even ugly folks need love!!

Thanks Andrew. Sad

stevej Sun May 06, 2012 4:33 pm

Bob, what kind of spinner nut is that?

dckrsn Sun May 06, 2012 9:44 pm

stevej wrote:Bob, what kind of spinner nut is that?

Steve, Bought the spinner a few years ago on this site.
http://www.halfa-works.com/engines_2.html
The site is still up, but you might want to e-mail to make sure
he's still in buisness.
The spinner is the work of Tim Wiltse.
Great guy who mysteriously/sadly disappeared.
Bob

**RknRusty** Sun May 06, 2012 10:03 pm

Woah, I want everything on that front page. Those heads and plugs look like they may be the ones Bernie sells. They have really high compression, shaped internally a lot like the 1702. I love the spinners too.
I believe I read an angry thread on RCG last year about money disappearing and no engines shipped. But I think I'll send an e-mail and see what happens.

EDIT: e-mail sent to info@halfa-works.com. I'll report back if I get a reply.

**RknRusty** Mon May 07, 2012 10:51 am

RknRusty wrote:Woah, I want everything on that front page. Those heads and plugs look like they may be the ones Bernie sells. They have really high compression, shaped internally a lot like the 1702. I love the spinners too.
I believe I read an angry thread on RCG last year about money disappearing and no engines shipped. But I think I'll send an e-mail and see what happens.

EDIT: e-mail sent to info@halfa-works.com. I'll report back if I get a reply.

The e-mail was undeliverable. I'd say, sadly the owner of that site is no longer tending it.
I still want some of those spinners, but I bet you can't find them with Cox's odd 5-40 stud.

anm2 Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:49 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:
EXModelEngines wrote:The cast crankcases will yield just about the same performance as a traditional bar-stock crankcase. As mentioned, they were originally designed to save money, but ended up costing more due to the secondary processes being more time consuming that a traditional bar-stock crankcase.

The only disadvantage I have heard is they do not wear as well as a traditional bar-stock one. While saying this, please keep in mind this is over a very long period of time, and not after 10 or 20 runs.

Regards, Matt

It's true the first time Cox attempted to produce the cast crankcase it was an attempt to lower cost, but it was the high rejection rate that made it prohibitive, not the additional manufacturing. When Cox sold off the tooling to manufacture the extruded case they had no choice but to build cast cases.

Why did Cox sell the tooling to make the extruded case? Who purchased it? Also, does anyone know why they made three different variants of the extruded crankcase and roughly when they were fielded? Obviously, the thin taper came out with the babe bee, but when did the other two come out? Thanks for any information.

Jason_WI Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:26 pm

All the machines that made the cylinders and crankcases were sold to the scrapper when Estes cleaned house. Some of the molds for the carb bodies were saved and MECOA has them. That is another story in itself.

pkrankow Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:33 pm

I would bet that the crankcases were made on old style turret lathes, and as such had limited value as machines since that would be technology from 50+ years prior, and likely most needed rebuilds. While rebuilding an old machine that is suitable is likely less expensive than buying new, buying an old machine to rebuild would put the price up quite a bit, and scrap would look like a reasonable liquidation, especially considering the time involved.

Phil

Cox International Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:55 am

RknRusty wrote:As my personal preference, I wouldn't buy a cast crankcase. But that's just because to me they look ugly and cheap. I'm sure they run okay.

North Americans lol!

Europeans must know something you guys don't, as that is where the majority of engines with DC crankcases get shipped to Huh...

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