My DIESEL fleet and Diesel fuel blending DIY

gkamysz wrote:The 80% ether in Deere starting fluid is essentially the only liquid in the the can(they also add oil for upper cylinder lube). The rest is the propellant gas which doesn't end up in the fuel.

Thanx for the comment and tip for Deere can content, its great, so no fuzz with Hepthanes, Epthanes, Butanes, Chloroethanes
added in other brands Start Spray's.
Easyest to calculate mixing ratios.
Thanx.

Just make sure you put your fuel in a glass or metallic container NOT plastic. Nice engines you got there

I should ask a friend when he goes to pick up pieces of John Deere retailers it's far for me just for some bottle It's been a long time since I haven't tried again The last time I used klenflo stuf I don't need to tell you why I was having difficulty To start m'y litle cox engine I succeeded after bending a connecting rod Break a crank pin and lets Say I was very surprised to hear it start I have some engine designed for diesel I should give it a try I could install the .40 irving on my old .40 trainer Looks like a good economical choice Compare with nitro

Nice engines!

I gotta stop reading CEF. Just too many cool ideas and stuff I read and see! Now I want to get and try and 049 diesel, ive got the Cox conversion kit, but Im thinking a 049 diesel made as an 049 diesel.

Good stuff pegin! keen to see your reports and any test run videos etc.

Yabby

Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure I have around 12 diesels. I've ran all the ones that are complete. I thought a while back that I'd like a Cox diesel conversion, but I now really have no great desire for one. I'd prefer to stick with engines which were purpose-built as diesels. One that I'd really like is an OK Cub diesel, being American, which is pretty rare as diesels were not popular there at that time. The only other I can think of (I'm no expert) is the McCoy DuraGlow.
Having a Cub (or McCoy) in the collection would add another nation. I have English, Australian, Indian, Chinese & Russian. I reckon my engine collecting has just about finished due to engine and postage prices these days.

As for fuel, I don't believe the JD starting fluid is sold out here. Once my supply of (really old) diesel fuel runs out I'll have to test my theory about "Master" starting fluid (which I can get) which is 50% ether, the rest being Heptane, so no need to add kerosene. That's the highest Ether content I can find in Oz.

Yabby wrote:Nice engines!

I gotta stop reading CEF. Just too many cool ideas and stuff I read and see! Now I want to get and try and 049 diesel, ive got the Cox conversion kit, but Im thinking a 049 diesel made as an 049 diesel.

Good stuff pegin! keen to see your reports and any test run videos etc.  

Yabby

If you want to purchase a .049 diesel, PAW engines are a good start.
They are forgiving engines if you are going to learn how to run a diesel.
The PAW 15 was my first diesel.

The little diesels are a little harder to start (.03 and .049)
They like to have a little Amyl nitrate ( up to 2%) in the fuel for easy starting / running.
But getting Amyl nitrate is hard to find. You could use any octane booster?

Here in the U.S.A. the only place I can get premixed diesel fuel is from Aerodyne (Al Heinrich)
Al only sells it by the quart so it can get past the postal service hazmat shipping fees.

Good looking bunch of diesel's there , can't wait to hear them sing a tune !

sosam117 wrote:[

Here in the U.S.A. the only place I can get premixed diesel fuel is from Aerodyne (Al Heinrich)
Al only sells it by the quart so it can get past the postal service hazmat shipping fees.

You mentioned PAW diesels in your reply above....Eric Clutton the US PAW agent -trading as 'Dr Diesel' used to supply ready mixed diesel fuel-and he's in Tennessee-a lot closer to you....have you checked with him about availability?

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

ffkiwi wrote:

sosam117 wrote:[

Here in the U.S.A. the only place I can get premixed diesel fuel is from Aerodyne (Al Heinrich)
Al only sells it by the quart so it can get past the postal service hazmat shipping fees.

You mentioned PAW diesels in your reply  above....Eric Clutton the US PAW agent -trading as 'Dr Diesel' used to supply ready mixed diesel fuel-and he's in Tennessee-a lot closer to you....have you checked with him about availability?

 ChrisM
 'ffkiwi'

Eric Clutton (Dr. Diesel) use to get his diesel fuel from Allen Heinrich (Aerodyne)
but Eric has not been selling the diesel fuel for 3 years now.

Last time I got diesel fuel from Dr. Diesel for my 03 to 06 size small diesels was at Toledo five years ago
and Eric didn't have that much fuel there to sell.
The fuel he sold for the small diesels were marked 1/2A
because the mix was different for the small engines verses the bigger diesel engines.

I have contacted Eric and purchased two PAW 55 BR (with R/c throttle) in 2018 and did inquire about the 1/2A diesel fuel.
Eric told me to contact Aerodyne to get my diesel fuel because that is where he was getting it for years.

Five days ago I emailed Aerodyne for diesel fuel and have yet to receive an answer?
I have asked some friends that fly diesels in SAM (Society of Antique Modelers) and they think Allen has no more ether?
I hope not?

I love my simple to run PAW engines (all 57 PAW engines).



I have no problem with getting the Amyl Nitrate. Have a qt. bottle yet on hand.

Well it looks like you'll have to get used to going the John Deere engine start route then....either that or make friends with a high school chemistry teacher. Ether is becoming a tightly controlled substance in most countries around the world-but still available -with some limitations, in countries like the UK, Australia and NZ-though in our (NZ) case you cant just walk in off the street and purchase it. We here in NZ are fortunate in having a couple of people so dedicated to their modelling that they have gone to the extra effort of getting licensed, doing the appropriate H&S handling courses, and building suitable storage facilities (to meet the licensing requirements)- so that the rest of us can continue to enjoy our diesels-at significant personal expense as well as time to the individuals concerned. Some people go far and beyond-for the benefit of the rest.....

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

PS And before anyone asks-there is NO-repeat NO alternative to diethyl ether-there is no other chemical compound you can substitute for it in model diesel fuel....and I state this wearing my chemistry PhD hat, not my modeller's hat

I recently retrofitted my PAW .049 to my Stork. I had a Norvel .061 on it and it needed a lot of nose weight so I traded it in for the PAW. Runs are spectacular and flying it is a joy. Easy starts and more than enough power. What a smooth runner. Today the winds were a steady 15 mph and this was just cutting right through it with no wind up.

Even though diethyl ether seems to be available through Amazon for me, JD starting fluid is still a much cheaper solution, it seems. 500ml of diethyl ether is priced at $54 whereas a can of JD which contains about 150ml of ether costs less than $5. I still wonder if there would be any difference between the two products.

atesus wrote:Even though diethyl ether seems to be available through Amazon for me, JD starting fluid is  still a much cheaper solution, it seems. 500ml of diethyl ether is priced at $54 whereas a can of JD which contains about 150ml of ether costs less than $5. I still wonder if there would be any difference between the two products.

As stated earlier in this thread. John Deere starting fluid is about 80% ether with the 20% being some type of upper lubricant (kerosene?) and propellant.

A club mate (Jack) blends his own fuel with the JD starting fluid, kerosene, caster oil, and cetane booster (about 1%).
If I don't get an answer from Aerodyne for diesel fuel, I'll have to ask Jack to show me how he makes his fuel?

I know he puts the JD starting fluid in the fridge to cool the can down before carefully picking a hole in the can to get the ether out.

I spray JD directly into a graduated cylinder and I add in castor oil. Last I add the kerosene (or lately I switched to lamp oil). I empty the contents of the cylinder to the container and I repeat the transfer a couple more times to make sure that all of the castor oil in the cylinder is mixed into the mixture.

Drdiesel's recommendation for PAW 55 and 80 was 40% JD, 40% kerosene and 20% castor oil -though one probably needs more castor during break-in. He also noted that the cetane booster doesn't do anything for smaller engines and must be added no more than 2% for larger ones. All percentages are by volume.

I have eventually switched to 40% JD, 30% lamp oil and 30% castor oil and I usually mix about 100ml at a time. The lamp oil I use is Lamplight Farms Ultra Pure Clean Burn Lamp Oil Clear. I really haven't noticed a static RPM difference between lamp oil and 1-K kerosene. The lamp oil has similar but a less pronounced odor compared to kerosene.

sosam117 wrote:As stated earlier in this thread. John Deere starting fluid is about 80% ether with the 20% being some type of upper lubricant (kerosene?) and propellant.

The lube is oil of some kind. Some people say that fuel made with JD runs very dark in the exhaust. This has always been my experience, but I've never had any clean ether to try and haven't run a two stroke diesel in ages.

The risk of cooling the JD and pouring, is that there may still be propellant dissolved in the ether and resulting fuel mix. If used immediately, it can come out out of solution in the fuel lines or carb leading to trouble running.

I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can.....am I on the right track...?

also..what sort of containers, squeeze bulbs, syringes, fuel tubings, etc. are the handiest for transfering fuel into  the PAW .049 / onboard fuel  tanks...?

I know about keeping the main, long term storage  fuel supply in a metal can..[or a glass jar with a tight lid]...but I'm looking for "clever ideas" from the DIESEL GURUS that  make the transfer of fuel to the plane quick, easy, neat and clean....

TD ABUSER wrote:I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can.....am I on the right track...?

also..what sort of containers, squeeze bulbs, syringes, fuel tubings, etc. are the handiest for transfering fuel into  the PAW .049 / onboard fuel  tanks...?

I know about keeping the main, long term storage  fuel supply in a metal can..[or a glass jar with a tight lid]...but I'm looking for "clever ideas" from the DIESEL GURUS that  make the transfer of fuel to the plane quick, easy, neat and clean....

Most of us non US types who grew up with diesels simply use a polythene squeeze bottle to fuel with-syringes being hardly necessary except for the fuel preparation stage where you might use one to measure out small volumes of cetane improver. ..unless you're filling a bladder, when a 30 or 50cc size syringe might be used....but most diesels don't run on pressure...unless you're doing CL racing-and often not even then (due in the main to small bore venturis) .......Squeeze bulbs seem to be a peculiarly US thing-I don't trust any rubber container I can't see into.... Needless to say, you pour from your bulk container into the squeeze bottle for your flying session, and return the unused fuel when finished flying...you do NOT leave it in the pp squeeze bottle 'till tomorrow' or 'till next weekend' plumbing depending on your preference-is done by having a fine brass tubeing nozzle that fits the filler tubes on your tank, or you use a piece of fuel line to link the two temporarily whilst filling.

The biggest precaution you need to take is to NOT use silicone fuel tubing with diesel fuel-anywhere in the system-it swells under the influence of diesel and will not stay on the fittings-any fittings-that it is attached to. This still leaves you with a fairly wide choice of fuel lines-neoprene, plastic, rubber (if you're desperate!) -but for toughness and durability, you can't go past Tygon tubing-the yellow stuff....which also has the advantage of normally being available at your local hardware store...and definitely at your local chainsaw shop...!

Fuel bulk storage-either metal or glass....metal has the advantage of not breaking if you drop it, but the disadvantage of flaking internally, rusting internally with time, and makes it hard to see particulates or sediment-which will often occurs with castor based diesel; glass-especially brown glass bottles-have been the traditional storage-and for that matter, the traditional retail unit of diesel fuel supply. I use both-500ml or 1-litre metal drink or camping stove fuel bottles, and brown glass 250 or 500ml bottles. I think on balance I prefer bottles as the caps generally seal better...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

TD ABUSER wrote:I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can....

I've had no experience with JD ether, but I do remember back in my younger days that our worksop had boxes of cans of ether for Cummins truck engines. No-one ever used the cold-start fluid because it was completely unnecessary in our climate. Man I wish I knew what happened to those boxes of the stuff in our parts store when the electricity commission was privatised.
One thing I do know is that the cans were mounted on the firewall (Ford Louisvilles) inverted, with a cable to the dash to operate it.
the reason for my reminiscence is that you had best check whether the JD cans are mounted upright or inverted. Obviously if they are utilised while inverted, you then need to bleed off the propellant with the can upright- opposite to normal aerosol cans.

Oldenginerod wrote:

TD ABUSER wrote:I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can....

I've had no experience with JD ether, but I do remember back in my younger days that our worksop had boxes of cans of ether for Cummins truck engines.  No-one ever used the cold-start fluid because it was completely unnecessary in our climate.  Man I wish I knew what happened to those boxes of the stuff in our parts store when the electricity commission was privatised.
One thing I do know is that the cans were mounted on the firewall (Ford Louisvilles) inverted, with a cable to the dash to operate it.
the reason for my reminiscence is that you had best check whether the JD cans are mounted upright or inverted.  Obviously if they are utilised while inverted, you then need to bleed off the propellant with the can upright- opposite to normal aerosol cans.

GOOD POINT...!!
Thanks for mentioning that..!

ffkiwi wrote:

TD ABUSER wrote:I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can.....am I on the right track...?

also..what sort of containers, squeeze bulbs, syringes, fuel tubings, etc. are the handiest for transfering fuel into  the PAW .049 / onboard fuel  tanks...?

I know about keeping the main, long term storage  fuel supply in a metal can..[or a glass jar with a tight lid]...but I'm looking for "clever ideas" from the DIESEL GURUS that  make the transfer of fuel to the plane quick, easy, neat and clean....

Most of us non US types who grew up with diesels simply use a polythene squeeze bottle to fuel with-syringes being hardly necessary except for the fuel preparation stage where you might use one to measure out small volumes of cetane improver. ..unless you're filling a bladder, when a 30 or 50cc size syringe might be used....but most diesels don't run on pressure...unless you're doing CL racing-and often not even then (due in the main to small bore venturis)   .......Squeeze bulbs seem to be a peculiarly US thing-I don't trust any rubber container I can't see into....   Needless to say, you pour from your bulk container into the squeeze bottle for your flying session, and return the unused fuel when finished flying...you do NOT leave it in the pp squeeze bottle 'till tomorrow' or 'till next weekend'  plumbing depending on your preference-is done by having a fine brass tubeing nozzle that fits the filler tubes on your tank, or you use a piece of fuel line to link the two temporarily whilst filling.

The biggest precaution you need to take is to NOT use silicone fuel tubing with diesel fuel-anywhere in the system-it swells under the influence of diesel and will not stay on the fittings-any fittings-that it is attached to. This still leaves you with a fairly wide choice of fuel lines-neoprene, plastic, rubber (if you're desperate!) -but for toughness and durability, you can't go past Tygon tubing-the yellow stuff....which also has the advantage of normally being available at your local hardware store...and definitely at your local chainsaw shop...!

Fuel bulk storage-either metal or glass....metal has the advantage of not breaking if you drop it, but the disadvantage of flaking internally, rusting internally with time, and makes it hard to see particulates or sediment-which will often occurs with castor based diesel; glass-especially brown glass bottles-have been the traditional storage-and for that matter, the traditional retail unit of diesel fuel supply. I use both-500ml or 1-litre metal drink or camping stove fuel bottles, and brown glass 250 or 500ml bottles. I think on balance I prefer bottles as the caps generally seal better...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

Thanks for your reply ffkiwi..!!
I have what's left of Dr Diesel fuel in a can that dates back probably 15 years that I figure could be sent through a fine paint filter, then sent through an automotive grade fuel filter.
Would water [if any] remain separated from the oily fuel mix...?
Once the old fuel is clean...would you add a dash of JD Ether to it and see if a PAW .15 likes it or not...?

TD ABUSER wrote:

ffkiwi wrote:

TD ABUSER wrote:I plan on turning the JD Ether Can upside down and then spraying just the propellant out of the can.....am I on the right track...?

also..what sort of containers, squeeze bulbs, syringes, fuel tubings, etc. are the handiest for transfering fuel into  the PAW .049 / onboard fuel  tanks...?

I know about keeping the main, long term storage  fuel supply in a metal can..[or a glass jar with a tight lid]...but I'm looking for "clever ideas" from the DIESEL GURUS that  make the transfer of fuel to the plane quick, easy, neat and clean....

Most of us non US types who grew up with diesels simply use a polythene squeeze bottle to fuel with-syringes being hardly necessary except for the fuel preparation stage where you might use one to measure out small volumes of cetane improver. ..unless you're filling a bladder, when a 30 or 50cc size syringe might be used....but most diesels don't run on pressure...unless you're doing CL racing-and often not even then (due in the main to small bore venturis)   .......Squeeze bulbs seem to be a peculiarly US thing-I don't trust any rubber container I can't see into....   Needless to say, you pour from your bulk container into the squeeze bottle for your flying session, and return the unused fuel when finished flying...you do NOT leave it in the pp squeeze bottle 'till tomorrow' or 'till next weekend'  plumbing depending on your preference-is done by having a fine brass tubeing nozzle that fits the filler tubes on your tank, or you use a piece of fuel line to link the two temporarily whilst filling.

The biggest precaution you need to take is to NOT use silicone fuel tubing with diesel fuel-anywhere in the system-it swells under the influence of diesel and will not stay on the fittings-any fittings-that it is attached to. This still leaves you with a fairly wide choice of fuel lines-neoprene, plastic, rubber (if you're desperate!) -but for toughness and durability, you can't go past Tygon tubing-the yellow stuff....which also has the advantage of normally being available at your local hardware store...and definitely at your local chainsaw shop...!

Fuel bulk storage-either metal or glass....metal has the advantage of not breaking if you drop it, but the disadvantage of flaking internally, rusting internally with time, and makes it hard to see particulates or sediment-which will often occurs with castor based diesel; glass-especially brown glass bottles-have been the traditional storage-and for that matter, the traditional retail unit of diesel fuel supply. I use both-500ml or 1-litre metal drink or camping stove fuel bottles, and brown glass 250 or 500ml bottles. I think on balance I prefer bottles as the caps generally seal better...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

Thanks for your reply ffkiwi..!!
I have what's left of Dr Diesel fuel in a can that dates back probably 15 years that I figure could be sent through a fine paint filter, then sent through an automotive grade fuel filter.
Would water [if any] remain separated from the oily fuel mix...?
Once the old fuel is clean...would you add a dash of JD Ether to it and see if a PAW .15 likes it or not...?

I would expect that to be the case-nothing in diesel fuel is particularly water miscible-and unlike glowfuel, none of the components absorb water. Should there be any water present it can only have come from condensation of water vapour from humid air in the can when the lid was off. I see no reason why it should not be rejuvenated by adding fresh ether...this is the usual approach. The only point I will make is that NONE of these types of products-to my knowledge-specify an EXACT ether content-it is invariably expressed as a range eg 'contains 70-83% v/v diethyl ether etc  -this makes it nigh impossible to mix accurate fuel mixes-unlike those of us lucky enough to have access to pure ether (and I'm using the word 'pure' here in relation to the engine start offerings-the ether suitable for engines may well be the lowest grade pf purity available-generally sold as 'solvent grade' or 'reagent grade'-and may well have lots of other impurities-but at levels that make absolutely no odds for our purposes.....so if you can find a source of straight ether-go for it-but there is no need to by the expensive purified stuff...which generally increments by an order of magnitude in cost for each successive level of higher purity.

The main things to be aware of when using JD or similar is to a) allow the gas to bleed off adequately-either before tapping the can, or afterwards, by letting the contents sit for a while in your container before making up fuel and b) factoring the remaining non ether fraction (about 20% or thereabouts of the contents) as part of the kerosene component of your fuel. Typically we aim for a minimum ether content in the final fuel of 30%....some engines will run with a slightly lower content, some won't....quite a few prefer more ether-up to 40%...which seems to be about as high as you need to go (note this is for 'conventional contra piston equipped diesels-some of the old fixed head types like the US Drone went as high as 70% ether-but usually had no kerosene in the fuel, just ether and oil)  It is reasonable to assume that JD cans from the same box or batch number will have the same ether content-but probably not cans from different batches...though they will all doubtless be in the stated range of ether content. This is where getting consistency from batch to batch becomes an issue-but if JD is your only source, you simply have to live with it.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

Specifically talking about JD Starter Fluid, my understanding is that once the fluid comes out of the can, the propellant (which is mostly LPG, and may be some CO2) readily evaporates and what one is left with is nearly all ether except for some small amount of lubricants. I tested my understanding by spraying the JD Starter Fluid into a container. For every 100g the JD can lost, there was ~80g of liquid in the container - which I assumed is nearly all ether. Note that JD Starting Fluid MSDS lists the ingredients by weight (see below). I'm now wondering if I got this all wrong, any feedback would be appreciated.

Aside from that, I mix only as much fuel as I'm likely to use within a week or so. Usually 100ml. I first spray the JD Starting Fluid into a graduated cylinder. I than add the castor oil, and the lamp oil, plus some DII, all by volume. I then mix it all using a glass stirring rod and transfer into a dark Boston glass bottle (with poly cone seal) where I kept the fuel for quite a few weeks without noticeable degradation. But still, I believe the JD can is an as good a container for ether as any, so I'm only motivated to take the ether out of it only when I need. That way, I usually don't need to do guesswork with my fuel's ether content.

If the ether content of an old fuel is unknown, I have a 10ml graduated cylinder into which I pour a few milliliters of the old fuel. I then wait for a few days (the warmer the better/faster). In summer in the garage, a day or two is usually sufficient. At the end of the wait, the lost amount would be the ether. Once the ether is gone, the castor oil and the kerosene/lamp oil separate. That way I can get a pretty good idea about the composition by volume of the fuel in the old container.