Broken needle, any ideas?

I had one of these i never did get out and another that i boiled the crap out of to clean REAL good so it would finally unlodge itself ! Before that i even tried spraying carb. cleaner (with the extended nozzle ) right into the ventura hole (the little one ) Good Luck !

Are you 100% sure it’s still in there?

I liked Mauricio’s idea of cleaning all the crap out of it. It should dislodge quite easily once clean with a sharp tap or compressed air.

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The threaded insert that's in the backplate can be removed. I save most of my old backplates that have cracks or ears broken. Pull the insert out of a old one and insert it back into the desired one with a little JB weld.

Ken Cook wrote:The threaded insert that's in the backplate can be removed. I save most of my old backplates that have cracks or ears broken. Pull the insert out of a old one and insert it back into the desired one with a little JB weld.

I would bee interested in how to do this Ken , you say threaded ?

getback wrote:

Ken Cook wrote:The threaded insert that's in the backplate can be removed. I save most of my old backplates that have cracks or ears broken. Pull the insert out of a old one and insert it back into the desired one with a little JB weld.

 I would bee interested in how to do this Ken , you say threaded ?

By ”threaded” I assume Ken means the inside thread where the needle threads into and the outside of that insert is probably smooth or maybe knurled  

This is probably how KK made their special bee backplates... I wonder if a 128tpi postage stamp NVA could be made to fit a bee backplate?

It may be possible to remove the NV insert from the backplate in the same fashion as the TD as shown in this example provided by Lieven recently
I would try this on a couple of old beat up backplates first before attempting on the W196 engine.

The only thing I can think of is a nice long hot soak in a Crock-Pot with antifreeze in it and air or a fine pick to remove it after a while. I wonder if the previous owner possibly tightened teh bejesus out of it and it may be slightly stuck under pressure and not by castor or fuel? Hope you can get her out soon.

you can't use the 128 spraybar  in a integral tank backplate. The KK assemblies for the integral tank backs were a custom part. Darren Albert purchased the last of those assemblies and sold them on Ebay years ago. He had hundreds of needles and spraybars. I probably should've bought a few. I passed and it was a good decision as I rarely use integral bees anymore. The postage stamp spraybar will not work due to a smaller diameter and the hole is in a different location where the fuel exits. I highly doubt your going to be able to remove the broken piece as it doesn't just remove itself.I've had this occur dozens of times.  It jams into the bottom and all the prodding and prying usually doesn't offer much success. The outside of the insert is different depending on years made. Some have knurls, some have flutes. I wouldn't be overly concerned about damaging what you have, it's already damaged therefore you have nothing to lose. Pull it out and replace it, you could of had it done already it's that easy.

Yes, I know the broken tip is still in there. I can't pass a fine wire down into the screened opening like I can with another back plate.

The W-196 engine is the same as any other tapered case early engine.  Only thing different is the longer shaft needle necessary to extend above the closed hood for external adjustment.  My bad, I should have applied heat before trying to unscrew it.  

I robbed the unvented back plate from that scored anodized Golden Bee and used that.  I ordered an unvented plastic back plate from Matt this morning along with other things to replace it.  But Ugh, plastic.

I did not know the NVA could be pried out.  The hammer thing looks to be quite aggressive, but I'm game.

Thanks to all for your comments.

Bob

Is there a way you could bend a very fine piece of wire or sewing needle (of the same size of the piont on the needle stem) into an L shape and use a small flat blade screwdriver to lever it up into the hole?

If you can't get it out. I'm sure someone on here has a non-vented black widow or golden bee backplate in their parts stash they can spare.

There's this slightly overpriced but NOS Golden Bee tank kit:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/194336856/cox-parts-tank-front-back-for-golden-bee

Or you could try to win a Black Widow: https://www.ebay.com/itm/COX-049-BLACK-WIDOW-model-airplane-engine/163485818956

What might be fun is getting another long stem needle.

Admin wrote:Is there a way you could bend a very fine piece of wire or sewing needle (of the same size of the piont on the needle stem) into an L shape and use a small flat blade screwdriver to lever it up into the hole?

What might be fun is getting another long stem needle.

One of the first things I tried Jacob. Tried fine wire up through the screened venturi opening, then a stiffer safety pin, neither worked.

Next time I do an engine crock pot boil I'll toss it in and try again.

Yeah Hen's teeth on that needle.

Bob

Ok, I'll bite. What do you exactly mean by a long shanked needle? In that type of needle, I am aware of the ones with larger and smaller knobs on top. And for the horseshoe type needles, I do know there are long and short needles. If indeed there is a long shanked needle, would the backplate for it be specifically for it?

I have two with short needles. I have no idea what they cam from. Here is a short vs long.

Consider a sewing needle or pin again...maybe an uphosltery pin.
But this time grind the tip square. Your needle tip may be wedging or jambing off to one side of the fuel needle instead if pushing square on the end.
Hopefully a ground-off needle tip (no longer sharp) will sit on the end of the fuel needle, and give you good purchase to TAP it out with a small jeweler's hammer. No SMALL hammer? Then a 5"-6" long 5/8" bolt.will do. The idea is lots of little taps versus a big wallop.

Also, heat the plate with a heavy soldering iron or very small butane torch to quickly heat the area...hopefully fast enough to expand the plate before the needle expands too!

944_Jim wrote:
Also, heat the plate with a heavy soldering iron or very small butane torch to quickly heat the area...hopefully fast enough to expand the plate before the needle expands too!

I would do that and then tap the backplate heavily on an anvil/vise, straight down onto the top. The inertia may jar the needle loose and pop it right out.
Otherwise, I would agree that it has most likely been screwed down way too hard. If it's tight enough to snap when unscrewed, I doubt anything will shift it.

The more I think of this problem, the more ideas too in my head.

The following is just to hold the backplate firmly:

Screw the back olate.to a chunk of wood. Chuck the wood/backplate in your vice such that the wood is clamoed by the jaws, and the backplate is resting on top if the jaw edge.

Or cut two pieces of wood (plywood, for instance). Drill or machine reliefs in one to clear the delicate parts of the backplate...the venturi, the filler tubes.
Then use both pieces of wood to clamp the backplate in the vice. Again to hold the backplate...just not by the delicate mounting ears.

I suspect the mating hole in the backplate is a tapered hole as is the needle valve tip. Tapered machined mating surfaces are some of the strongest connections in this world! Look at lawn mower engine flywheel/cranks...or TR6 rear axles/bearings...the stub axle is tapered. In particular, the TR6 stub axle will be ruined by banging, but will pop apart if done by a custom press.

I have had many tanked bees won from the 'bay with broken needle tips stuck in the body.  Removing the body is easy. I stack small washers that have a larger diameter than the needle body and use an old needle valve with a broken tip.  Screw the broken needle (I actually grind the needle down taking all the needle off leaving only the threads) against the washers adding washers as the needle pulls the body out. Use pliers to screw the needle.  Once its out you can clear the hole or replace the body. Clean the mating surfaces and use JB weld only on the top of the body knurling or groove as Ken stated. Make sure to align the fuel inlet hole with the fuel nipple. I put the modified needle back in and use small clamp to hold the body down as the epoxy dries. The epoxy also seals against any air leaks between the back plate and the needle body.  
I posted this procedure a while back and the only drawback is that spare needles and bodies are not always available.
I actually do this to all my metal tank back plates when rebuilding engines as the epoxy sealing actually helps the engine run better.

I've learned something new tonight...this is a surprise that there is a "removable" piece in there...now if I could find my warped Golden Bee backplate!
Thisbitnof knowledge is going into my Model airplane note book. Thanks guys.

Chevyiron,  the short needles are used on some Cox powered cars.  I like the short needles as they are less prone to vibration, wearing the threads and causing the engine to run erratic. I sometimes cut the head off the long needle and epoxy a bead that was drilled out to fit the stub. Got that idea from a Leo Squire engine and it looks cool! That along with the tried and true fuel tubing/washer combination can only help the engine run more consistent.
 

Wow, lot's of good idea's.  I like squaring off the pins end.  The problem is that angle.  

The tragedy is losing that long shaft needle, the only place I have ever seen it is on the 5cc vented tanked Babe Bee engine used in the Cox Mercedes.  But any BB needle will work.

Pictures show a Cox Riviera with the short needle required to avoid contact with the Rivieras back window, the long Mercedes needle needed to clear the closed hood for external adjustment and two standard BB/BW/GB needles with small and large heads.

Bob , how long is that needle you need ? i have one thats 1" over all

If it were mine, I would be trying to get it out using an ultrasonic bath, a good solvent, and a really strong magnet to help it along in the right direction.