I know there are a few here who can relate

I think it's a good flying plane, I just would use it for it's intended purpose. While there are improvements that I would personally make on the plane, I would build it as the instructions claim. Phil's instructions however can be hard to decipher sometimes.  I wouldn't invest any time in painting it. It's a waste of paint and time. It will fly no better with paint . If your using the plane to learn stunt, then do just that and fly it. If color is desired, I would use domestic gift wrapping tissue under the SLC applied with glue stick or thin white glue. Painting the covering adds a lot of additional weight and makes it problematic to iron more on in the event of a accidental crash. The LA can run pretty well, but I prefer the FP ABN over the LA when looking for a slight edge on power. I wouldn't hesitate to make a bladder compartment in the outboard wing just to have. Keeping it as simple as possible allows for quicker turn arounds and flying. It also keeps the spirit alive and the next project near completion. Ken

Ken spot on...this is going to be a RST beater foam wing major dings filled and good SLC job that I get better with each time I use the stuff..... I have Rustoleum I been fearful of trying but this beater will get it just to keep oil/fuel out of the wood and I don't care if it streaks and looks crappy

Good idea on cutting in the bladder compartment as I do have a FX25 set up for bladder also

when I got the ARF RM I made a spare set of Tail feathers...that I just finished a second copy of so the RST will sport a RM canopy and rear end and wings loosely looking RMish

I love foam wing cradles using the shucks but Phil likes to cut both wings in the same blank and makes using the shuck a royal pain but I finally got the shuck apart and taped together all leveled up....

Forgot...not Crown...Makers Mark on a Ice ball with a good cigar...heading there now

You all hod the fort down....back in the AM

fredvon4 wrote: By myself I suck at being productive.... sucks to NOT have a flying or BUILDING BUDDY

Livin' There Dude! My participation in this hobby is a lot like "The Plate Spinners" who used to show up on 1960's variety shows:

A guy would have a frame on the floor, with bunch of tall dowel pegs sticking straight up. He'd start spinning plates on the dowels, adding more plates and furiously running around, spinning up the others as they slowed down, 'till he had 20 or so going.

The advantage I have is that my projects will sit quietly, until I get back to them, but I still have a tough time not 'adding another plate to a dowel'....

At least you guys "fly" your stuff... don't be "this guy"... [picture of Roddie]

Fred, I enjoy Phil. There's just something about Phil that can take a frown and turn it upside down. I've had some bad days and Phil really makes it worth the trip. I fly with Phil many times through the year. I just missed our opener for combat last weekend. Phil was present and watching him and my son go at it in combat is entertainment. It usually ends up in a mid air because they're both very aggressive pilots. Phil and myself however have disputed discussions in regards to certain things. I admire his drive to continue producing wings and kits as I would've lost that early on.  The kits though are designed around the packaging boxes which narrows down the largest part to approx 2'. This means that spars aren't one continuous piece. If I were building this kit, I would skp the kit supplies spars and use either bass or better yet spruce. I've done them in poplar as well. I cut my own due to getting the fits tighter. When I cut my spars on a table saw I true them on a router table with finger boards side and top. The spars are then beveled so they wedge and dig into the groove. When done properly, the wing is assembled in your hand and it will remain flexible for about 5 minutes and then the wood expands making movement very difficult. I check it through the next hour and bend it over my knee if required. I don't use expandable polyurethane to assemble. Phil does and I don't. I like good old inexpensive thinned white glue. Phil also uses the SLC between the wing roots. I don't care for that either, but it makes perfect sense due to it becoming a sacrificial joint which will make replacing a wing panel easy to do if something breaks.

Update
Ring Master Rugged Stunt Trainer (RMRST) coming/going along...tail heavy may be a problem but I think I have enough nose to move engine forward a bunch (did not drill holes yet)

Because I had the stock, I took Ken's advice and used full length spars in all three places

Also combat survival foam wing trick is to add of Kevlar cord (or CF TOW)continuous from LE center back to center under the forward LE spar, well glued on in the wing tips and outside of TE ... proven, when well done, to keep TE of wing under tension at full speed nose plant and resist flexing forward and breaking

New LA 25 on the way.... my first, so a slight learning curve as I make fuel and break it in next week



The black in the center is two layers of light CF veil white glued to center section and wider at TE



I have not set the wing saddles yet.... basically the Bass wood profile fuselage is 9/32 wide and 3/4" x 1/32" ply is formed and glued inside the wing cut out as a saddle... to witch you Tape (or glue) the wing.... taped or glued, replacing he wing is easy

The bell crank and controls are bonded to the fuselage making the wing completely replacable

Nice work, Fred. That will be plenty rugged for your needs.

Fred, while I don't recommend them, I would suggest the Higley brass heavy nose spinner. You have to ask yourself this, would you run a marathon with 10 lb sneakers?  I would postpone sending that engine forward. The fuselage isn't strong enough for that to halt vibrations and you get the tuning fork effect when you do so. You will lose considerable rpm's equally. Keep the engine back in the mount as intended. Phil also recommends glassing the nose. Directly behind the crankcase in between your beams you can easily burrow out a pocket and bury some lead in there if needed. However, I would trim down the tail if needed. This is why it's always best to wait until you have the chosen engine to do so. That core appears to be Phil's speed limit core which is 460 sq's. I could be wrong on that but if so, I see your tail is longer than the boom tail offered on the SL planes. You could also provide a heavy wheel like a old Perfect wheel and provide a single nose gear wheel. I've done this on Phil's similar planes. While this works to balance, it does create a tendency for the plane to turn better one way than the opposite due to drag. Using a spinner and a nylon prop would also be beneficial to adding any needed weight if the cg is in need of balancing. A metal tank weighs more than a plastic so there's a lot of things you can do to alter the cg. The problem with the metal tank is that vibrations can cause erratic runs and the design of the plane is responsible for that. However, you could easily place a rocket tube bladder compartment in the outboard wing which would alleviate all of the above. I do that regardless of my engine feeding options. It's there if needed and it doesn't compromise strength. One of my best flyers is one of Phil's older Texas Slow designs with a FP.40 on a chicken hopper. It was designed around a Fox .35. It had been repaired a lot and the FP being considerably heavier balanced the plane right out with no gear. I love that plane. Very controllable, not fast when propped correctly 9x4 APC trimmed to 8 3/4 with the tips left square and 10% fuel. That's another option if balance is still an issue. I do love the LA .25's and they're what we use as a staple engine for Phil's designs. Ken

I just ordered an RST. Suggestions welcome. I plan to build to plan and put an FP20 on it with a plastic clunk tank.

Phil

Thanks Ken

I do pay attention and appreciate your thoughts and opinions

I hope the tail is close...I failed to weigh the 12" long 1.5" tall Lite-Plywood canopy/ruder of the RST vs the taller RM rudder

The stab/ele are fairly close is total size between the supplied RST and the RM I built up

Basically I think my variant, if tail heavy, may not be hard to balance by slight shift of engine

And since I decided to use RSM aluminum LG and wheels up front it may come out nose heavy needing the engine as far back as practical or a tail skid from larger music wire

plenty of options so I think it is not that big a deal

Phil...

Cartier RST Plans are not not intuitive and the written plans keep referencing a "plan view" that was not in my kit. I decided to forage ahead without asking Phil C about it because I have built five of his different kits

I meant to but forgot to remake the bell crank mount out of real ply as I don't trust the lite ply piece provided.. however there was a good length of fiberglass cloth so I just double layered the mount as I set it in place

The instruction do not show or say where the lead out guide goes. So I plan to mimic my RM location temporarily and hang the model and adjust for slightly nose down

There is no CG noted...Phil was asked bout this on Stunthanger and only said as built with a LA 25 the CG will come out close to correct and stable enough to fly and later correct for flying style but still no X.X" from LE reference.

On another of his foam wings I did as suggested and mixed the lite spackling with water based polyurethane and I guess too high humidity at the time...was weeks before I could sand the mess down.

On this one I did as suggested and used alcohol to thin the spackel.... two days (again high humidity) before it would sand without balling up.

One trick I learned... messy job---put on rubber/latex, or food prep plastic gloves and just smear the spackle mixture every where. Then use edge of credit card and remove as much as possible...do not try to get perfectly smooth.

If you do fill the foam grain with spackle (and it is NOT needed to do this)..when you go to use the SLC covering... vacuum, blow, vacuum and wipe down with alcohol rag then wax tack rag and make absolutely sure all the dust is off the wing

you need a very clean area for the SLC as the stuff is a static magnet and every slight balsa sliver, dust bunny, dog hair, and other loose crap will fly over to it and cling......

Well... I have built a lot of things just not any foam wings. I'm not worried, just wanting to avoid pitfalls.

As to the engine and nose weight I would try shifting the engine and fuel tank some, then add lead. Most planes in my experience do not tolerate having the engine out on the ends of the bearers. 1/4 inch further out is not likely a problem.

Phil

Phil

If you are good flier some of my foam wing ideas are over kill... I still get stupid and occasionally bury a engine in the dirt with my world famous figure nine maneuver

some weight penalty but not killer with foam wings

Spars...RST has three...two bass or spruce and one balsa in pre made grooves in the LE and top bottom high point..
As kitted Phil sent six pieces to be scarfed together and Ken is correct that using three 48 inch full length is better... pain cuz the wing tapers in very direction so I still reinforced the center 6 inches (over kill) of all three of my full length spars...built as per plan with the six pieces will be just fine if you don't have my F9 maneuver in you kit of tricks

Phil's plans want a lot of PITA SLC work with multiple pieces... I use CF that I have but lite fiber glass or even corded packing/strapping tape works... the foam core intersection at the TE is a weak point that needs reinforcing for a nose plant "one with the earth" landing

CF TOW or Kevlar thread has very significant tension strength and zero compression strength.. a bit of the next to zero weight stuff on the entire TE forward along center of wing tips and anchored in the LE (I go all to way to the center) makes the wing near indestructible in a full speed nose plant...I have proved this many times

ON arrow shaft fuselage plane we wrap the TOW or Kevlar around the shaft and set with thick CA and spritz of accelerator
On this wing I just CAed to total TE length and over this I will set a long piece of 2" strapping tape half on top half on bottom of TE

Ken and I both agree that Elmer's or TiteBond wood glue..full or thinned with water... is a good glue for wood to foam...but there are good reason to use the expanding foam water activated new poly glues... down side of them is controlling expansion and the mess...plus near impossible to sand ... BUT if you have an interior void to fill they are good stuff...this wing does NOT have a interior left half to right half dowel ( usually CF tube) spar like some combat wings do, so there is not any void filling on this wing

I use ACE foam pads in coarse, medium, and fine to sand foam... not the big sponge sized blocks but the thinner pads...they cone 4 to a package and are 4.5" x 5.5" x 3/16th thick and easy to control on foam flat or curved sanding

Just me but I hate the look of the foam beads so I sand, fill with Spackle, sand, color (water thinned artist craft paint in Preval sprayers) and cover with SLC/Doculam/FastCal the foam wings...(Most other Mono coat stuff is too high temp) but if just a real beater trainer...there is absolutely no reason to do this.... clear SLC is all that is needed...glue streak and finger prints be damned

I fuss about..(two weeks now and not fully asselbled) BUT this plane can be built to plan in one day with fast glues or a week with wood glue and rustoleum

No paint is really needed at all if you use epoxy for the entire nose and Tail feather attachment and cover wing and the only balsa Stab/Ele with SLC.... the fuse is bass wood and I doubt ever gain weight form spent fuel oils

I did take the time to separate the wing bucks to use as a cradle not just for wing assy but they help with the sanding and shaping

As I said above, Phil cuts both wings in a CNC cutter with the blank designed to fit the shipping box so the shucks are not symmetrical when you cut them apart to use as cradles... I simply used strapping tape to mate them up and it worked fine

once you get the kit feel free to ask questions

Thanks Fred, that is a lot to take in.

I am crashing a lot still. I don't tend to nose in as I fear the earth a little. Instead I tend to sink into the ground, or pancake...inverted usually in both case. I am not yet learning square maneuvers, and I struggle with 8's but can do them (they are all over the place), never tried a cloverleaf. My attention drifts with inverted laps for some reason.

Except for below grade crashes in my side yard... That is me getting cocky thinking I can try stuff because I am on a hilltop. 1/2A only. Nothing like getting out of place thinking there is 10 feet of extra air and there isn't...

I don't get to fly nearly as often as I would like.

I have 24k carbon tow. I have used some and it is pretty easy to use either with CA or epoxy. The only "problem" is the wide yarn keeps trying to get wider. It is bound with styrene so I can separate the tow pretty easily. 6k, 12k, and 24k were the same price so I got the heavy stuff. ($1/10 ft shipped on Ebay)

I have epoxy, titebond, some light fiberglass, lots of 6oz fiberglass(I built a canoe years ago).

I think I will try for a medium finish. Better than fingerprints, don't care if the foam shows some.

Phil

A very important factor in learning the maneuvers is not to try and make them look like the maneuver based on a piece of paper or what you think they should look like from inside the circle. The clover leaf is nothing more than inside and outside loops. What I see when beginners try this maneuver is that they make the loops too tight, too low and too close to each other. The end result is loss of speed and usually model. Give the model plenty of breathing room even if it takes the entire circumference of the circle. Keep saying this in your head, inside, outside, outside, inside. When entering the first inside, it must be done at a minimum of 45 deg, this gives the following outside enough ground clearance. Practice 1/2 of the maneuver and then the other half opposed to doing it in it's entirety. Do the first loop and fly it out level for a 1/4 lap while gaining a bit more altitude. All of it can be refined later. The key to all of the maneuvers is smoothness due to steady speed, if you pull the trigger in a panic, speed bleeds off immensely resulting in stalling and a very uncontrollable jerk. Use your entire body and arm and lead the plane through the desired maneuver rather than the other way around. Think of a square as nothing more than a loop with some corners on it. All you need to do is enter it the same with the exception of making your handle return to neutral. Ken

Mostly the weather here in Central Texas made this a lot longer than required
This model from Core House is easy to build in a few evenings

After cutting the wing tips to shape I estimate 48" long 440 sq in are down to 46" long 416 sq with a AUW of 30.5 oz so that is 13.5 oz per Sq In

I used RSM short Duralum LG and 2 1/4 wheels on DuBro 1/8" axles and a RSM sourced GRW uniflo 2.5 oz tank

Push rod is section of small diameter CF tube I had with a z bend rod at BC and titanium threaded 4/40 insert and DUbro clevis to a very large elevator horn

RM tail is monoKote hinged (I do not like this method as stiff)...if I did it again I would use Klett or DuBro hinges

Wing is hobby craft water paint under supplied SLC with CF and FG in critical areas as well as Kevlar cord on TE forward inside wing tips to the center of the LE making this wing nose in impact resistant

Fuselage has five layers of rattle can Rustoleum and no clear ( it is a beater trainer)

Nice looking RST. I'm going yellow wing and orange fuse and tail with mine. Super simple.

Phil

Phil
Looking forward to seeing it

I need to get one more for the fun of experimenting with better finishing and some ideas I have making one P51ish


BTW even with my mods she balanced OK

I am using Rustoleum latex gloss yellow on the foam I reduced 2/1/1 paint/water/denatured alcohol. I then put on reduced polycryllic 1/1 with denatured alcohol., then straight polycryllic. ...and think I really did this in the wrong order... I think reduced polycryllic, then reduced paint, then straight or reduced polycryllic might make a stiffer wing.

When I cut the wing tips round the paint went all the way through the foam! However the wing gained little stability from the paint alone. The pollycryllic seems to be thermo-glue like. The clear film sticks like nobody's business. The clear film has made me utter bad words too. The paint job melts instantly if the iron gets off the film!

I used polycryllic to set the glass over the wing joint. I did the patch pattern similar to the instructions. I split lengthwise a section one panel long to wrap the TE and part of the wing tips with overlap in the middle, and had to put it away for the night. A full width will wrap the LE and wingtips on each panel tomorrow (hopefully) time permitting.

The fuse got a straight up Rustoleum rattle can orange. I am tempted to overcoat it with polyurethane, but probably won't.

I need to cut a remote needle protector from aluminum, and I have to replace the back on the LA25 I will probably put on this. The parts are here already. I don't know which side the fuel tank will go on, but it will be a plastic clunk tank, a 3 oz Hayes chin tank most likely since that is with the engine in question.

Needle protection
http://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/oops-1-12-degree-error-should-i-worry-about-it/msg397398/#msg397398
the engine is on the broken ARF nose earlier in the same thread... It is still on the same broken ARF nose in my basement.

Phil

Oh shoot. I was supposed to ask about the carbon tow but I have the wing half wrapped already.

Phil

Phil
I use CF TOW under the spars and now use Kelar Thread for the TE but the TOW can be used there also, just hard for my old shaky hands

You can see some of the TOW peeking out of the end of the spar where I razor planed and sanded he tip



wing tip foam safe CA the Cord.... for the RST I went under the LE horizontal spar all the way to the center (over kill)



Trailing edge...in this case split in the center to wrap around arrow shaft aft Fuselage and get CA in place

I will defiantly give the second one, and the little hackers, this treatment when I build them.

Here is a dry fit of the covered wing, steam bent saddle, fuse, and the elevator is still on the painting stick.







Phil

I really need to have Phil C send me a set or two of just the wings.... so simple to use and they seem to go together straight from the get go with very little fuss

Phil your RST looks like it will be the fun and durable trainer it was designed to be

If you have someone to launch no need for LG but if stooge launched you need good LG set and tail skid/3/4" wheel

I do NOT like bendig Music wire LG legs....I never get them perfect and they are hard on the fuselage

RSM distribution has inexpensive Duralum LG legs in long and short..the short are good for profile ringmaster, skyray, flight streak planes and the RST is in that prop diameter range using 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 wheels... I prefer brodak sourced Dubro 1/8th axle set and wheel collars but a 4-40 long screw and washers and nuts lash up works as well.... you and I will never fly 100s of flights so a sleve for the wheels/axles to prevent wear from the threaded screw is not really needed but a good idea just to get in the habit of doing it right

As you do more and More foam wings with the SLC you self learn tricks
As you play with foam wings and learn to hate the pop corn look you learn how to fill the grain.... I had too much humidity to do it right so mine are rather coarse for my taste...but one of my Lil hacker wing sets came out looking like balsa sheeted smooth as a baby butt and took paint very well