Twas a beautiful day at Triple Tree - Scores posted and maybe a video coming.

You may need to reposition the gear if you're bouncing too much. You can't win em all, and it was good experience!

Hi Ron and Chris, thanks for reading my post.
Yes it was good for me. You know I've never come home from a contest without a trophy... but the other pilots were better than me, so I am not complaining, just disappointed because the crystal awards were so beautiful. Wayne got one for third and his flying was very off today. Taylor has just now learned the pattern and flew his Dad's 30 year old plane, a serious expert level stunt plane. He's yet another natural talent. Nice guy too. Looks about 8 feet tall lol.

I'm happy. The judges were tougher than those I've had at my cozy home field who might have scored me higher. It was Bob Zambelli and Ken Armish, two real pros who usually work the Expert and Advanced classes in Huntersville. All of their sheets on me were within 2 point totals of each other. That's impressive. This will help me push to get better. I out-scored a bunch of guys in Advanced, but of course that's just because of different judges for those guys and an utterly meaningless comparison. And some guys who maybe really shouldn't be flying Advanced yet

Chris, I can usually land the Magnum very well. It has wing mounted gear on very heavy wire. The Oriental has fuse mounted bent aluminum struts with the axles right behind the LE.

Here you can see a wheel peeking out:


I've not competed on pavement yet, but these golf green circles on hard soil are probably more like pavement than the thicker grass I'm used to. I actually land much better in the thick grass too. I'm thinking some low profile wheels with a thinner rubber would bounce less. But even Dave Wenzel with his Oriental in Beginner stuck it and rolled like I should be doing. I could have at least placed 4th behind Wayne with a decent landing. Still no trophy, but less frustration. I am glad I did better on the OH8s which are my only other problem maneuver.
Rusty

Yeah the thinner wheels would cut through the grass better too. and good job at the comp, while you didn't come home with any goodies, at least you still flew and learned something which is IMHO is just as good as winning because you're better equipped for the next one:) I'm hopefully going to be starting on some of it soon and I'm going to use the Ray to at least get my hands wet got to swap the tank out though the arrow has a standard tank on it. I was hoping that Bob Dixon was going to help get me going but from what I hear, he's not flying much anymore and hasn't been around lately at the field so I'm just gonna read up on tips and procedures and try lol. Again good job Rusty! (Bandit)

https://youtu.be/aRkioErMCi8



One thing I didn't mention is I was running too lean and fast today. Way under 5 seconds makes those pullouts difficult to do gracefully. There are a couple of glaring examples. My mistake, I've got to slow that baby down. I richened it more on the second flight(the video) but still to fast. And it was 20 degrees hotter than the first round in the morning. That sounds like it makes no sense-needing to open the needle as the temp rises... it should work the other way. But maybe it's because the engine is getting hot under the cowl. The cylinder is mostly exposed, so maybe I should cut some more cowl from around it. Or try 15% nitro. Higher nitro should make it run cooler in the hot weather. I have 3 gallons of 10% though.

Bandit, I recommend a 4 ounce Sullivan slanted face clunk tank for the Ray. Mount the wide side against the fuse with a pad and no uniflow, just muffler pressure to the overflow vent. I use the third hole to fill with. Just end the tube right inside the stopper. I loved that setup on my Skyrays.
Rusty

My bad I ment to say 1/2A Ray it's my little ray i'm just going to use it to get used to wing overs, loops and stuff I'm gonna switch out the tank on the arrow for a stunt tank. I tried my tach race engine on it since it had a stunt tank and WOAH big mistake! I think it would of been too fast for 42' lines O_o. I've pretty much given up on the flight streak I may build one from a kit later but I'm going to do it for fun. I've bought and am fixing to build a brodak Ringmaster S1 since I'm familiar with it and am going to stuff my Fox .35 in it, next is another RM s1 for my dad and then it's my Twister.
Thanks for the tank info though. (Bandit)

Rusty, I assume your Oriental is the bouncing culprit? I might be able to offer you some insight. The wheels are pretty much crap like most ARF hardware. Make sure and this can be tough to do but when the wheels hit the ground that they're not  squashing to the point that they might be rubbing the aluminum gear? The wheels on the Oriental as quite small and in higher grass this can result in the aluminum gear getting caught in the grass. The other possibility is the way the aluminum gear is made. The gear itself isn't symmetrically bent. Depending on how you mounted the gear it could place the center line of axle forward or backwards. A fairly simple fix which would just require a re drill of the hole pattern 180 deg the other direction. This is the reasoning  Chris was inquiring in regards to where your wheels lined up with the leading edge.Having the gear forward too much will certainly bounce the plane. Have you tried giving the plane down elevator on landing once it's on the ground? It's also a good idea to use a piece of fuel tubing as a washer on the axle to bind up your outboard wheel and create drag on that wheel. It will act as a brake and also prevent the plane from rolling inboard on take off and landings. This becomes very helpful on asphalt. Ken

Good morning Ken. Yes, the Oriental. I actually do better landings in the less fancy grass at other fields, than I do on the putting green grass at Triple Tree. It's on hard packed soil too, so maybe more resembles a tarmac. I hadn't thought of the rubber squashing and hitting the aluminum, I'll look for evidence of that. Also my axles are bushed with brass tube and the wheels drilled to fit over it, and they spin like greased ice and track straight ahead. I had not thought of slightly braking the outboard one. I will try that. The only plane I can really stick a landing is the Magnum with its wing mounted gear, but I haven't ever flown it at TT. I don't give it enough down when it's touching down. After the third bounce I did and it stayed down. I should do it earlier but was worried about flipping it and losing the 25 pattern points, but since I'm throwing away almost that many points I guess I should try. At least I'm finally getting 30+ points on my takeoffs. Landings are supposed to be the other free points. I'll slow that OB wheel down and look for some less squishy wheels.

We had good judges today, Ken Armish and Bob Zambelli were within 2 points between all their score sheets. My landing starts at 3:27 in the video above.
Rusty

The wheels if indeed are rubbing, can be chucked up in a drill press with the axle and a can be dressed and shaped on the inboard side with a bit of sandpaper. I typically do this for a more streamlined appearance. This may not even be the problem, just something to look at. The stock wheels are quite small but wide and I can see that as a possibility. In regards to your engine run. Is your run consistent throughout the flight? Was the engine just too lean to begin with. If your using the APC 10.5x 4.5 it can be hard to lend an ear as to how it's supposed to be set due to the higher rpm's the engine is hitting. Is it considerably richer in the beginning and eventually starts flying to fast? The FP as mentioned can be a fickle engine to tame. If your satisfied with the engine run and it's flying too fast with the APC 10.5 x 4.5 I would go to longer lines. I was using 63' eyelet to eyelet. This is a simple test and one that's easily swapped back. I wouldn't use high nitro fuel. If the engine is getting hot, I would suggest opening the holes up in your tongue muffler. The RSM tongue in my opinion has holes too small. You need to free up that restriction. This can be done by opening the holes to the next drill bit size but the RSM tongue has it's holes to close to each other to gain any considerable opening. The solution would be to add another row or even easier drill through the existing and break out the back. The FP has more power than needed to fly the plane. A head gasket would be most helpful here. This would detune the engine.  It sounds to me like your on the critical edge of where the engine wants to run in a fast 2 stroke. This is also a very simple test and can be easily tried and returned back if not satisfied. This is where having multiple sized venturi's can also  be most helpful. This can also be another reason as to why the engine is running hot. The fact that you seem to be comfortably making the pattern on 4 oz's has my attention in the direction that the venturi is slightly smaller. Ken

I'm also glad for Ken Armish. He's a real pleasant person to talk to and he's a lot of fun at Brodak's.

As usual, a lot to think about. I think the biggest part of the landing problem is the pilot just sucks at landing Lol. But I'll take your advice into the mix and get it worked out. I'm also talking about it on SH, in a great thread started by Motorman called, "What's your nemesis?".

Ken, the engine runs the same until I have finished the pattern and only leans out in the last laps. I'm down to 3-3/4 ounces of fuel and still run 7:20 to 7:40 from the time I wave at the judges. Dangerously close. I have run this engine richer and gotten 5.2 seconds back when it was 60-65 degrees outside, needing almost the full 4 ounces. If I can accurately gauge it from the top, my venturi is .257", same as a 25fp.

I'll open the muffler a little and see if if helps. I also have a small OS#762 expansion muffler that I've removed the stinger and opened to 7/16" and thinned like an eggshell. I used it on my 35fp, but but I don't think I need to try that yet. On the early flights back in April, it sounded like a piped engine with a real 2-4 break on a prefect schedule. No one I tell believes it, but it's evident in one of my first Oriental videos.

It's likely to be 90 to 102 here in the next 4 weeks or so, so this is a priority. I think the speed is why I'm not making pretty pullouts. Bob told me I was the fastest plane in the contest, and I hadn't realized it. I was zipping along pretty quick in Huntersville too. Someone had me at 4.7 sec, and I think it was even rattier yesterday. I'll time it on the video.

I'm itching to get out to the field and work on this. Thanks for your interest. That goes for all of you too.
I'll keep y'all posted.
Rusty

I just timed it on the raw video. The only two early laps I have on camera are during my inverted flight at 5 seconds. After the Vertical 8s it's still 5 seconds flat. The two laps prior to the hourglass have fallen into into the high 4s, about 4.8, best I can tell. I timed 10 laps after the pattern at 4.4 seconds.

That's not as bad as I expected. I'd like to get the laps for all stunts including the Square 8 to no faster than 5.2. That's a hard one to do neatly at high speed. I don't mind being fast when it's time for everything after that, especially if it's windy.
Rusty

If you're wedded to flying the Oriental, take the time to get all of the little stuff right.  Make sure that aluminum gear isn't deflecting under stress. A buddy hardened his by taking a gas torch and getting it really rich and passing it under the torch until it was completely covered in carbon and then leaning it out and working the metal with the flame until the carbon was mostly gone. Worked on .050 stuff we used for making the fuel tank in my Pitts Special. This will keep the gear from rebounding and throwing the model up into the air. ARF stuff is usually too flimsy, thin, and /or too soft. Hardening will make the bounce better.

Ken is all over it on speed, which in control line is actually time. The lengthening of the lines is a really good technique for trimming. His points are right on.

Your handle can make a huge difference. Slowing or speeding the control action from the handle is huge. Most people have them set up too sensitive. Do not use a handle that has a pistol grip with your hand in the "relaxed" position of top forward. Your hand must be straight up and down to get the equal throws necessary for a properly shaped maneuver.

I think I read somewhere you taped the hingelines on the tail, if it has flaps, do them all.

I mentioned before the prop pitch on these schnerle engines is sometimes very fine for the model being flown. The engine may need to rev, and just because other guys in Intermediate are using that prop doesn't mean much. Getting the power needed, and the braking on the down side, is often found by buying props with less pitch and trying them. If you're not trying all of these trim techniques, you can be leaving a lot on the table. I used to fly against a guy in Expert that would place with a Sig Twister with 1/8th inch horns, stiff gear and an FP with an Aero Products/Bolly/Eather prop of some low pitch, proper length combo. He was a great stick, no doubt, but he had the thing trimmed out well, the engine ran fast where necessary and slowed where necessary so that the pattern flowed, each maneuver well powered and well braked. Unless the model is timed well through the maneuver you will be chasing it, or waiting for it. Hard to explain until you see it change.

Good luck,
Chris...

stuntflyr wrote:If you're wedded to flying the Oriental, take the time to get all of the little stuff right.  Make sure that aluminum gear isn't deflecting under stress. A buddy hardened his by taking a gas torch and getting it really rich and passing it under the torch until it was completely covered in carbon and then leaning it out and working the metal with the flame until the carbon was mostly gone. Worked on .050 stuff we used for making the fuel tank in my Pitts Special. This will keep the gear from rebounding and throwing the model up into the air. ARF stuff is usually too flimsy, thin, and /or too soft. Hardening will make the bounce better.

Yes, definitely wedded to the Oriental, till death do us part. I am addressing the LG. They are flexible and the tires are spongy.

stuntflyr wrote:Ken is all over it on speed, which in control line is actually time. The lengthening of the lines is a really good technique for trimming. His points are right on.

I'm at 61' right now. I was a little too lean, for which there are a couple of possibilities I plan to try. Better cooling, for one. The Cylinder is completely exposed, but my tongue muffler may need some extra holes. In April I was getting 5.2 to 5.4 laps if i recall. I may just need to run slightly richer. I also switched fuel due to availability at an inconvenient time in the process. I now have 2 gallons of the Powermaster I started with, so I'll be going back to that this Summer.

stuntflyr wrote:Your handle can make a huge difference. Slowing or speeding the control action from the handle is huge. Most people have them set up too sensitive. Do not use a handle that has a pistol grip with your hand in the "relaxed" position of top forward. Your hand must be straight up and down to get the equal throws necessary for a properly shaped maneuver.

My handle situation is not typical. My wrist only moves in one direction(only ulnar deviation with no radial deviation), plus I use an overhanded fist grip with the UP line on the pinky side of my hand... backasswards. I use an unbiased Tom Morris cable handle, but I have to set the DOWN cable almost an inch shorter than the UP cable(because that's the direction in which my wrist does not move) I can adjust leverage by moving the lines from side to side and plan to try and use that to try and equalize the cable lengths. I know. You'd have to see it to understand what's going on. I'm told people always talk about it while watching me fly. I'm repeatedly told it's not possible to fly like that.

stuntflyr wrote:I think I read somewhere you taped the hingelines on the tail, if it has flaps, do them all.

I'm going to blame Brodak for the reason I didn't tape the flaps. I read the instructions 20 times and squinted at the pictures till I almost set them on fire. Then I did what it said... connected the bellcrank rod to the top hole in the flap horn. Connected the elevator long rod to the second hole in the flap horn. The rod is also connected to the top hole in the elevator horn. Now I have more flap deflection than elevator deflection. Then I re-read the instructions... yep I followed them correctly.

I did build access to the elevator horn, but I'm not wild about changing it, as it would make it more twitchy, and my ability to turn smoothly has been much enhanced with this model. I probably don't have 20 flights on it yet, so I have until October to completely consummate the marriage. I will try taping them, but I'm guessing that the inefficiency of the open gap may be needed to offset the greater flap deflection. I spoke with Dave Wenzel who has an identical plane, within one ounce of mine. He set his up the same way, but hooked the rod to the second hole in the elevator horn. He's a judge, so understands the shapes, but as a beginner pilot, he still flies loops the size of beach balls.

stuntflyr wrote:I mentioned before the prop pitch on these schnerle engines is sometimes very fine for the model being flown. The engine may need to rev, and just because other guys in Intermediate are using that prop doesn't mean much. Getting the power needed, and the braking on the down side, is often found by buying props with less pitch and trying them. If you're not trying all of these trim techniques, you can be leaving a lot on the table. I used to fly against a guy in Expert that would place with a Sig Twister with 1/8th inch horns, stiff gear and an FP with an Aero Products/Bolly/Eather prop of some low pitch, proper length combo. He was a great stick, no doubt, but he had the thing trimmed out well, the engine ran fast where necessary and slowed where necessary so that the pattern flowed, each maneuver well powered and well braked. Unless the model is timed well through the maneuver you will be chasing it, or waiting for it. Hard to explain until you see it change.

Good luck,
Chris...

This OS .40fp is not known for 4-2 break, but I have had it doing a really nice job of it before the contest, so I'm going to use the prop, muffler and Enya #3 plug I have for now. When I get enough flights on it to really get to know the plane I'll consider making a prop change. Early on. I got a good run with an 11-5 Zinger. But when I put the APC 10.5 x 4.5 on it, it really felt like it was in my wheelhouse. Meaning, I was suddenly more comfortable than I've ever been with a plane before. Please don't take this as me being defensive, I don't want you to stop giving advice. Keep in mind, I had never completed a beginner pattern until October 2013, just over 18 months ago, so I'm still a rank novice that can fly a full pattern. Until the Oriental came along, I had never put two full patterns back to back. Now I've strung 9 together without busting the pattern points. And only the last two were with a less than accelerated heartbeat. So please be patient with me. All of my advisors will probably confirm I'm hard headed and have to prove myself wrong while they shake their heads and wait for me to come into it on my own. I've driven poor ol' Ken Cook nuts telling me things more than once before I slap my head and do it right. My engine setup is a combination of his and Dennis Moritz's ideas. Both are Oriental experts from spinner to tail, and I've seen flashes of greatness from mine in the short time we've been on this project. Even with its shortcomings, I feel like I've taken a giant leap in the past 4 weeks with this plane.
Thanks, Chris. I won't let y'all down. I am going to tame this thing. Even with my locked up joints and kooky form.
Rusty