Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

RknRusty wrote:If Steven's generator is to truly be functional, then diesel is the answer. You can't be backpacking in the winter and depend on a cold 1.5v glow igniter. Starting a diesel in the cold might be hard, but maybe with a long windup ripcord like the old lawn mower engines had. Robot's direct drive seems sensible, whether clutched or not. However, knowing your engine's power specs at all RPMs before you choose your dynamo should make the job a whopping lot easier.
Rusty

EDIT: I wrote this as Steven was posting his latest installment.
Castor doesn't go away, it hangs around and makes a mess of things. I'm thinking you may not like the results of oiling your pulleys.

From what I have seen on YouTube, I think, a glow engine would start more easily in the winter when the battery is applied for a longer while to heat up the glow plug. However, I have never even seen a glow plug engine, so I do not know how easy or hard is to start them in the winter.

More Ether may start a diesel engine in the winter, true, but I am not sure how difficult this would be.

Perhaps, the best way to start up any engine in the winter while backpacking is to start a fire and put the engine and the fuel near but not as near as to self ignite and wait for a while.

Steven, glow plugs draw a Lot of current, 3 or 4 amps. And batteries will be dependable in temperate weather, but not so dependable in the cold. Plus they are added weight. I'm picturing a camper deep in the snowy trails with a broken ankle and frozen batteries trying to send a text or e-mail.

I'd like to suggest starting the engine unloaded and having a spring tensioned idler pulley that can be engaged with a lever to tighten the belts after the engine stabilizes. That's in lieu of a clutched direct drive and a dynamo chosen to output your target power at the engine's peak RPM on the power curve. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think you started with the dynamo, and are trying to adapt the engine to meet its needs rather than the other way around. I hope that's something you can work out.
Rusty

KariFS wrote:

dinsdale wrote:Mods, surely 10 pages of dribbling nonsense from Mr Bayes is enough.

Please do something.

C'mon, what happened to the "friendliest forum on the net"

Reading these and other posts is voluntary, and Steven is not trolling in other people's threads, nor is he posting anything "politically incorrect", although I must admit I haven't read all the posts.

But I think there is nothing here that would require actions from the moderators.

There are times when telling someone straight is the caringest (friendliest) thing to do. If you do actually care about someone do let them go on and on making as ass (donkey) of themselves - in public?

Admin wrote:

dinsdale wrote:Mods, surely 10 pages of dribbling nonsense from Mr Bayes is enough.

Please do something.

You're free to have your opinion. He's been staying on topic and not breaking any rules. There is a limit of 65,000 characters (including spaces) for messages and while I've never reached that, I'm sure it will tell you if you have exceeded that. There is a limit of 990 messages in one topic, once that limit is reached, the topic will be closed and a second one will be restarted to take off from that. As long as everything stays on topic and everything on this topic stays within this thread, everything will be fine.

Yep, fair enough.

RknRusty wrote:Steven, glow plugs draw a Lot of current, 3 or 4 amps. And batteries will be dependable in temperate weather, but not so dependable in the cold. Plus they are added weight. I'm picturing a camper deep in the snowy trails with a broken ankle and frozen batteries trying to send a text or e-mail.

I'd like to suggest starting the engine unloaded and having a spring tensioned idler pulley that can be engaged with a lever to tighten the belts after the engine stabilizes. That's in lieu of a clutched direct drive and a dynamo chosen to output your target power at the engine's peak RPM on the power curve. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think you started with the dynamo, and are trying to adapt the engine to meet its needs rather than the other way around. I hope that's something you can work out.
Rusty

I agree with you : a spring tensioned idler pulley clutch would solve a lot of problems. This, however, is very difficult to do in a non company environment.

As far as how I started the project goes, I had chosen Cox SureStart .049 Glow engine and then reverted to Cox SureStart .049 diesel engine mainly because of the lack of battery to start. Higher energy and torque at lower then the glow engine RPM was welcome.

I initially chose YAF 54 brushless alternator which can reach 12V at around 3000 RPM at 0 load and can provide 50W to 100W ( different sources give different numbers, not less than 50W, though ) mainly because this alternator is brushless. However the price of this alternator after shipping is $65 to $70 which was inacceptable even for a prototype. Then I reverted to Johnson 70W brushed dynamo which was around $30 after shipping. However, this is not a standard product and looks like discontinued. Only one supplier is available ( on eBay ) and this is unreliable. RS555 is extremely inexpensive ( $7 for one piece, $1 each for orders greater than 1000 ) and is very standard with thousands of suppliers on eBay and AliExpress. Thus, I have decided to use a DC motor and generator for which there is no information at all, mainly when used as a generator and not much when used as a motor either. Yet, this is a standard part, initially designed by Matsushita and Mabu7chi and now made in China. YAF 54 is designed and made in China and Johnson is designed by Johnson UISA and manufactured in China.

The main problem I have now is the fragile start of the engine which does not seem to be happy with some load at start up and I am trying to resolve the problem.

Of course, the best solution is the clutch which you have described but, again, this is difficult to make. I may try to do what I can to make one. I may wish to try the non clutch way again.

To make the discussed clutch may take a while and I am not sure whether I can reach the necessary accuracy and precision for this task.

dinsdale wrote:

KariFS wrote:

dinsdale wrote:Mods, surely 10 pages of dribbling nonsense from Mr Bayes is enough.

Please do something.

C'mon, what happened to the "friendliest forum on the net"

Reading these and other posts is voluntary, and Steven is not trolling in other people's threads, nor is he posting anything "politically incorrect", although I must admit I haven't read all the posts.

But I think there is nothing here that would require actions from the moderators.

There are times when telling someone straight is the caringest (friendliest) thing to do.  If you do actually care about someone do let them go on and on making as ass (donkey) of themselves - in public?

Yes. You are right. Thus : stop reading the posts. What more direct and friendly way to say this?

dinsdale wrote:

Admin wrote:

dinsdale wrote:Mods, surely 10 pages of dribbling nonsense from Mr Bayes is enough.

Please do something.

You're free to have your opinion. He's been staying on topic and not breaking any rules. There is a limit of 65,000 characters (including spaces) for messages and while I've never reached that, I'm sure it will tell you if you have exceeded that. There is a limit of 990 messages in one topic, once that limit is reached, the topic will be closed and a second one will be restarted to take off from that. As long as everything stays on topic and everything on this topic stays within this thread, everything will be fine.

Yep, fair enough.

Ditto.

KariFS wrote:

dinsdale wrote:

KariFS wrote:

dinsdale wrote:Mods, surely 10 pages of dribbling nonsense from Mr Bayes is enough.

Please do something.

C'mon, what happened to the "friendliest forum on the net"

Reading these and other posts is voluntary, and Steven is not trolling in other people's threads, nor is he posting anything "politically incorrect", although I must admit I haven't read all the posts.

But I think there is nothing here that would require actions from the moderators.

There are times when telling someone straight is the caringest (friendliest) thing to do.  If you do actually care about someone do let them go on and on making as ass (donkey) of themselves - in public?

I can't honestly say that I'd care THAT much about anyone I haven't actually met or otherwise exchanged personal messages with. I guess that's just the way I am.

A lot of good inventions have seemed like stupid at first. I am not saying that this project will or will not lead somewhere, but I don't think he's making an ass of himself. He probably doesn't have experience on these little motors, nor a club nearby, and he probably likes to experiment and write about it. Doesn't bother me. And I still haven't read all of it.

I think Steven has the right to post about his progress (or lack thereof). I don't think a cox powered generator will be a feasible solution for cold climate emergency power, I think of it more like a gadget. But maybe this is more like a "proof of concept" type of deal, and he is going to replace the engine later with something more efficient and convenient, something that runs on stuff that is readily available and that people carry with them anyway (ethanol, propane, elbow grease, whatever). After all the generator as it is will run maybe 10 hours with a quart of special fuel and while running it'll produce maybe 25W of electric power. Not a lot of power, difficult-to-find fuel, not a good combination.

But anyway, when I wrote my post earlier, I was more concerned about the "freedom of speech and all that jazz".

To paraphrase Voltaire:

“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death until moderate inconvenience your right to say it.”

Peace

I do not think experience is necessary as these are simple and basic things. The most important quality, however, is none other but IMAGINATION.

Everything I have said is true as far as I can say and what has not been true I have corrected as much as I can.

The advantages of such a generator is nothing else but the size and the sufficient power for some useful things as well as environmental independence as compared with other sources od electrical energy.

The military garbage I have posted is garbage because laser target acquisition is garbage as such which may have been used in the past but is probably used no longer as the laser beam can be simply seen and detected. In case of an infrared beam, this can be seen with inexpensive goggles available at most any shop now but not available a few decades back.

There is NO invention in this generator but there is an IDEA which is more important. As I was proven, there were a few people who had had and developed their generators before I started. I first got the idea in the 90's, I think, as I have always been fascinated by micro generators. Obviously, micro generators mean low power which, however, has thousands of applications now and before.

I am not very knowledgeable on Voltaire although I have heard the phrase. I am more familiar with the need to provide information and, also very important, the way the information is provided. THIS IS BECAUSE I HOPE MANY MORE PEOPLE THEN US ( I AND THOSE WHO HAVE DEVELOPED THEIR GENERATORS OR ARE IN THE PROCESS THEREOF ) WILL DEVELOP GENERATORS ALIKE IN THE FUTURE AND, I HOPE, THEY WILL BE MUCH BETTER THAN I AM IN THEIR DESIGNS AND DEVELOPMENTS. And, hopefully, a company will get to make them commercially. The reason for the lack of such at present is because none of the companies have ever gotten the IDEA to do so. As songs say : they have never had a coming. Of course, I am fascinated with the shown mini generators by companies which have manufactured them before. I say the reason for not making them now is shear stupidity of the presently available related companies.

I have made and improved two pulleys : one from wood and another from a sink tap gasket and plastic rims superglued on the two sides.

I have broken the dynamo in with an electric drill. At zero load, the dynamo gives between 9.36V and 10V at around 2500 RPM. 2500 RPM was not measure but was the rated RPM of the electric drill at 0 load which was approximately the case for the powerful drill. In case of a linear dependence this is 3.75mV and 4mV per RPM. This means the dynamo should be able to reach 12V at 3000 RPM to 3200 RPM. Again, this is at 0 load to the dynamo. Breaking the dynamo in reduced the rotational resistance ( torque resistance ) of the dynamo at 0 load.

I have oiled the dynamo's rotor axel seatings with Castor Oil. I have measured the resistance of the Castor Oil to be practically infinity. Thus, I have poured Castor Oil into the dynamo and rotated. Thus, the dynamo is fully oiled.

To Do :

~> Washers on the Propeller Screw to prevent from going into the pulley hole.

~> Gasket improvement and right size holes.

~> Lower gear ratio ( closer to 1 to 1 ) may also reduce the resistance of the dynamo.

~> Reduced tension belt.

~> Oiling and greasing the dynamo's rotor axel seatings.

~> Using the generator as a starting engine. I am not sure whether the dynamo would be able to turn the engine, though.

~> I may grease up the pulleys with oil. I would sure try to start the engine. Because the belt and the pulleys are greased up, I expect the pulleys to slip and not engage the belt. Thus, I would be able to start the engine normally without any load. Running the dynamo on external power supply will help. After spinning for a while the oil would go elsewhere and the belt would slowly start to engage.

my generator will turn my engine on a low 7.2V accu

and when it is warm i can even start it with it

you can and will learn how to start it with your generator
it makes your experiment more easy

Success to a great deal of extent.

I am typing on a cell phone now and will respond to messages and posts after.

For now : I have successfully started and run the engine with the dynamo attached.

Reverted to the 8 inch dual blade Texaco propeller to add some inertia at the expense of consumed by the propeller energy.

Started and run the engine with various fuels and belts.

The mechanical resistance ( the load of the dynamo with 0 load ) appears to be high thus a different dynamo may be welcome.

The propeller tension " controls " this mechanical resistance of the friction of the heavy rotor without bearings. The lower the belt tension the better. This is important.

Oiling the pulleys to make the belt slide only works to a tiny extent and does not seem to help significantly, although a good idea. Slips for a second or less only and then grips even when heavily oiled with normal and or Castor Oil. GREASE MAY HELP A LOT BUT I DO NWT HAVE SUCH AT THE MOMENT.

CLUTCH EXTREMELY HELPFUL AND ESSENTIAL.
I can start the engine without load like a breeze and then have a full and easy ( not very sensitive ) control. When I want and as I want I can release the now imaginary clutch, then press when I want and release again and press and release and so on until running stable. Regardless whether I get to start the engine Luke a breeze without a clutch I DO WANT AND MUST MAKE A CLUTCH as clutch is extremely important for customer friendliness and a better and safer use. The idling pulley clutch design is welcome although attention must be paid not to jump the loose belt out. An idling double pulley where one is used to touch and slip on the dynamo pulley may work too as long as the travelling distance is not longer than a few mm so the belt does not get tensioned nor loose.

I will write more on the settings. For now, because the engine starts with a load which proves to be heavy, much more fuel and air mixture is required yet the advancement of the fuel must be also taken into account. Although I managed few settings, one of the working ones is : Air Valve ( Throttle ) fully opened or close to ; Fuel Needle Valve to 4 turns open ; Compression : around one quarter turn one. Cannot start with a high compression. Once started, the compression can be increased. Does not allow much control. Probably, the Fuel Needle Valve can be decreased to lean the mixture and allow a throttle control with the Air Valve. Did not try. Stupid. Tried to open the Fuel Needle Valve more. Bad. Does not work. Too rich. Performance decreases.

Need more test runs.

Write to you all soon.

Well alright, looks like you got it goin' on Steven. Keep at it.
Rusty

Quick Cellphone Reply to Some of the Posts

To start from a battery is a good idea and I am happy someone has done so : tried, tested and true. I do not have such a powerful rechargeable battery. Thought of using the battery of a drill. Also, I have an 18V,1A transformer less power supply I may try.

The belt tension clutch was the first ideas discussed with someone on the forum. I am afraid, however, the belt may jump out when initially not tensioned. However, this idea may be easier to do in a home environment. I hope I am able to fabricate this.

The first I best do is reduce the pulleys' gear ratio to 1 to 1 or around. This dynamo puts one he'll of a mechanical resistance to the engine even at 0 electrical load.

I must also try to use the 3.5 inch triple blade Cox propeller to minimize the energy loses of the propeller. Will lose inertia, though. Hope will work better.

I got the generator started but I need more to get a better work out of.

For now, some points of the development have been reached. Needs more experiments with settings, fuel, lower gear ratio, tiny propeller, etcetera.

For now, I am also happy the settings of Air Valve ( Throttle ) : fully open ; Fuel Needle Valve : 4 turns open and Compression : low : one eighth to one quarter turn open are consistent. Thus, a high power start with a load is possible.

Pulleys’ Gear Ratio : 2 to 1. The engine pulley is twice as big as the dynamo pulley. The engine pulley has a 3cm outer diameter, 2.4cm effective diameter, 3mm rim to pulley seat height, 5mm rim to rim width, around 4mm effective width. The dynamo pulley is self made out of wood with approximate outer diameter of 1.6cm, approximate effective diameter 1.2 cm, approximate rim to seating height of 3mm, approximate rim to rim inner width of 4mm.

Fuel and Engine Temperature : Room. Fuel heated to reach room temperature because of the freezing Ether from a John Deere Starter Fluid can.

Load to the Generator : 0

Load to the Engine : the friction of the 0 loaded dynamo. Hence the belt tension is of extreme importance. Also, the load of a Cox 8 inch, dual blade, Texaco propeller.

Belt : various belts from elastic bands tried. Very thin and low tension ones as well as a thicker and a higher but not very high tension one. The thin elastic tape worked OK but broke after a successful run as expected.

Fuel : three fuels tried. Percentages approximate. Fuel 1 : 33% Ether, 27% Kerosene, 20% Castor Oil, 20% Cetone Booster. Fuel 2 : 35% Ether, 28% Kerosene, 23% Castor Oil 14% Cetone Booster. Fuel 3 : 38% Ether, 33% Kerosene, 24% Castor Oil, 5% Cetane Booster ( Standard ).

When started with the dynamo, the starter spring has fully been engaged. Unable to start with only one or two turns as without a load to the engine.

With Fuel 1, the important thing is the engine without load has done the same as the engine with the dynamo : worked for around 10 seconds and stopped. This is because of the high amount of Cetone Booster. Settings with the dynamo : Air Valve ( Throttle ) 75% open, Fuel Needle Valve 3.5 turns open, Compression close to the maximal.

With Fuel 2 and very thin and low tension belt ( elastic band ) and dynamo, the engine started at the same settings and run for a long while and was to continue to run but the belt got broken as expected.

In the case of Fuel 1 and Fuel 2, standard two cycle non synthetic oil was used to oil the pulleys and the belt so the belt slips for a while during start. With Fuel 2, Castor oil was also used for the same purpose. The belt would barely slip for a few turns and then engages regardless of the oil. GREASE is needed for a better slip.

With Fuel 2 and Fuel 3 ( Standard ) and a higher tension belt which did not slip when oiled, the engine started at these setting ( manual correct ) : Air Valve ( Throttle ) : fully open, Fuel Needle Valve : 4 turns open, COMPRESSION : AROUND ONE QUARTER OPEN. CANNOT START AT HIGHER RATES. Must counter the advanced ignition fuel by retardation. Then, after start and run for a few seconds, higher and higher compression was applied to reach close to the highest.

When started at the high settings to bring more fuel and air to overcome the load, the engine controls were very sensitive. Enrichment of the mixture by higher settings of the Fuel Needle Valve did not work as expected. May work at lower compression. Forgot to lean the mixture by reducing the Fuel Needle Valve opening.

At high settings, the engine works hard just to overcome the load of the unloaded dynamo. Does not reach stable run but increases and decreases the RPM slightly like a siren. Need more tests. I hope decreasing the Fuel Needle Valve setting to provide leaner mixture will help.

To Do :

~> New propeller pulley the same or very close to the dynamo pulley to make a 1 to 1 pulleys gear ratio. Although I may try to find pulleys from AliExpress and or eBay, I have managed to make one which I consider to be good from wood. I draw a circle on one inch thick wood and cut approximately. Then I use a grinder and files to make a cylinder. Then I use files to smoothen the cylinder up and shape better. Then I use a knife and a triangular file to make the canal of the pulley. On the dynamo pulley the excess part of the cylinder allows for a better grip as the contact area between the pulley and the rotor axel is bigger as well as allows for a tiny fan to be screwed on the pulley. The fan will blow air into the dynamo to reduce the heat.

~> Washers on the Propeller Screw to prevent from going into the pulley hole.

~> Reduced tension belt.

~> Using the generator as a starting engine. I am not sure whether the dynamo would be able to turn the engine, though. I do have a transformerless 18VDC, 1A power supply which I may use to try to start the engine. A cigarette lighter socket input with a diode from the socket to the dynamo and a starter button will be made on the generator power to allow for a car or motorbike battery to be connected directly to the dynamo to allow a battery start using the dynamo as an electric starter motor. The diode will not allow power to be returned to the source ( the battery ) from the dynamo. Because the load will have a separate switch, power from the starting battery will not be available to the output. The panel voltmeter will be able to measure the battery voltage with a diode drop of 0.65V to 1V ( 1.3V ) deducted.

~> I may grease up the pulleys with GREASE. I would sure try to start the engine. Because the belt and the pulleys are greased up, I expect the pulleys to slip and not engage the belt. Thus, I would be able to start the engine normally without any load. Running the dynamo on external power supply will also help. After spinning for a while the grease would go elsewhere and the belt would slowly start to engage. During the free spin of the belt, the engine RPM and energy can be adjusted with the settings. To do this, a good 30 second free spin is necessary which may be difficult to achieve with grease as the belt, even the low tension ones, seem to grip very well.

~> A clutch is an excellent idea but may be difficult to achieve in home environment as good lining up and precision as well as a good adjustability are a must.

~> The Real Dynamo : Theoretically, dynamos do not exert any force ( torque ) resisting the mechanical rotation at zero electrical load. Practically, there are two forces which impede the zero electrical load motion of a dynamo : electrical and friction. The electrical force is because of the dynamo’s internal impedance. The dynamo, being not ideal ( does not have an infinite parallel internal impedance ), through the internal impedance, creates an electromagnetic load with the internal impedance working as a load. Hopefully, in good dynamos, this electromagnetic force is very low. The friction force is because of the friction between the rotor axel and the seatings thereof. The heavier the rotor the bigger the force. The RS555 rotor seem to be very heavy. The lack of bearings makes the friction higher. Thus, with this dynamo, at high gear ratios, the engine will only be able to overcome the practical mechanical and electromecanical resistance ( torque ) of the dynamo which, theoretically, must be zero and is practically very low with dynamos with bearings and light ( ferrite ( a. k. a. ceramic ) rotors as well as very low self load.

KariFS wrote:How about arranging a clutch function to your belt drive the way it is done in those garden "rototillers" or cultivators? They have a loose v-belt, and when the operator wants to engage the rotors, he pulls a lever and a small tensioner wheel is pushed against the belt, tightening it. Of course in your application it would be more practical if the tensioner wheel would be spring-loaded to keep the belt tight and the manual lever would release the wheel. That way the engine could be started and stabilized with the belt loose, before engaging the generator.

Hard to explain in words but check out this pic from an old patent, figures 5 and 6 show the system:

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US4508188-3.png

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so If someone has already suggested this or if you have already discussed or dismissed this idea, you can just ignore this post.

Yes. this is an excellent idea. Can work without a spring : the idling pulley control lever can attached in such a way as to be able to release any tension from the belt. Then, When engaged, the lever will rotate over a pivot point to be able to fully clutch the belt in and continue to travel slightly more and then more travel in the same direction will be restricted. Because the belt moves in one direction only ( for unidirectional rotation devices such as this one ), the belt will push the pulley in this direction as well as up or down and will not allow the pulley to go back. In other words, the belt becomes a clutch spring too.

This way, the belt will be released when the clutch pulley is released. When the clutch pulley goes in the direction of the engagement, this engagement will become slowly with slow movement of the clutch pulley by the user. Then the pulley will reach a maximal belt tension and will continue to move towards releasing this maximal belt tension and then will reach the stop with the belt engaged at working tension. The difference between the maximal belt tension and the working belt tension will be a tiny one because the belt needs to move just slightly more after the maximal belt tension to be able to stay in this position not allowed to return by the moving belt.

In order to return the clutch pulley to belt disengaged position, the user has to move the pulley lever to overcome the belt holding action.

RknRusty wrote:Well alright, looks like you got it goin' on Steven. Keep at it.
Rusty

Thanks! Needs more work, though.

robot797 wrote:my generator will turn my engine on a low 7.2V accu

and when it is warm i can even start it with it

you can and will learn how to start it with your generator
it makes your experiment more easy

This is a wonderful idea and thank you very much for sharing this information as well as providing a working proof this start is possible.

I do not have an accumulator of this type neither do I have a car battery nor even a motorbike battery. I was thinking to use the battery of an electric drill or flash light torch. I may do so with a transformerless 18VDC, 1A power supply which I have made to run a battery drill off the mains.

This is an extremely powerful and capable engine able to start with loads and displaying huge power when driving these.

With a load, the engine may not be able to reach as high RPM as without a load and would have a power and torque pick at lower RPM.

Using a tiny propeller will reduce the energy consumption of the big propeller yet reducing the inertia provided by the big propeller. Although the dynamo is supposed to provide inertia to the system the lack of bearings and thus the increased friction may prevent this. Hopefully, the friction decreases with the length of work.

The heavier the rotor the more the possible inertia yet the higher the rotational ( torque ) resistance and the higher the load.

Using pulleys with a gear ratio closer to 1 to 1 or even a bigger pulley to the dynamo would reduce the rotational ( torque ) resistance of the dynamo to the engine and would allow for an easier start and a better control. The price to pay is the increased RPM per a given energy output of the whole system.

None of these problems would have occurred with a dynamo with bearings and a lighter rotor.

After the dynamo has been oiled and worked out with an electric drill, the dynamo has been found to be able to reach the targeted 12VDC at zero load at around 2500 RPM and lower. Hopefully, this means 4000 RPM to 6000 RPM will be needed to maintain 12VDC at higher loads. The engine should be able to reach this.

After all, this is an excellent and very powerful engine.

Do you have a pic ?

I wonder if you could use something like this to regulate the voltage output.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Swich-Solar-Panel-Charger-Controller-Regulator-for-Solar-Lamp-Light-PWM-12V-/400695571701?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item5d4b5134f5
They are common & inexpensive.