Round the Pole Fliying

ian1954 Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:09 am

I have now reached a bit of an impasse. In the Cox flight contest, the "flying" was carried out using the NightHawk.

Round the Pole Fliying Nighth10

My reliance on Butyrate dope for fuel proofing combined with repaired repairs and a not insignificant flight time prompted me to replace this with the KK Radian.

Round the Pole Fliying Kk_rad12

This was completed last October and remained unflown until this weekend. It was built with the intention of stunting and being able to fly it slowly. I discovered during the course of the weekend that this will not be possible on my arrangement - I will go into this in more detail later.

However, the Cox Medallion/Hiscott combination is superb. It is an absolute **!!!!***** to set up, getting the compression right, sealing the silencer, sealing the needle ........ but as you will see - once done - starting is simple and the throttle control excellent. If you want to fly RC 049 then I would heartly recommend this combination.

It has now had over 12 hours running and still thrives!

Now I know that some of the pictures and videos are repeats but I am trying to bring this together.

I even applied Roddies idea

https://servimg.com/view/17712579/550

It works a treat!

However, after many hours this weekend - I reached some conclusions that I didn't like! I would welcome all comments.

First of all though - this is one (of many) flights

This is a sample of my efforts to set up for slow flying and trim the little beast. It is not all plain sailing (Do I mean flying?)

First of all. I was using this as a test bench for my revisit to control line flying.

The first part works. No need for a "stooge" - start it, walk away and then power up to launch.

The second doesn't. Flying slowly is not acheivable here. I have RC models that fly at walking pace. That was my aim but failed miserably. There were anomoloies though.

I found two things - throttling back and the model literally drops like a brick. I can't describe this as a glide.

To fly more slowly requires up elevator (now remember that this plane is trimmed by RC, has flaperons and a linked elevator - I have the advantage that this can be done "in flight"). This results in the plane flying nose up.

When I engaged "flaps" down, again a nose up attitude prevailed. The anomoly occurred by accident. Slower flight could be acheived by up elevator and then levelling out using up aileron. Weird but doable.

It also became apparent that level "hands off" flight was only acheivable at speed.

Stunting was not possible but this is due to the short lines and the turning circle needed. I have no doubt that this could be achieved with longer lines. You can also see in he videos that the lines never go slack and ther is quite a bit of pole bending going on.

I had originally thought of incorporating throttle control into control line but it would appear to me that the symetric profile lends itself to a "certain" speed. I should have realised this when flying KK's bigger RC brother

https://servimg.com/view/17712579/601

Built for speed with a symmetric profile. Only flew this twice - it was too fast for me and the park I RC in.

Anyway, bang goes my idea of slow controllable control line! Now you have seen what I would have entered in the Flight Contest - same engine from last year - you can breath a sigh of relief now that I have been banned! lol!

More thought required Tired w/ Coffee Read

getback Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:13 am

https://servimg.com/view/17712579/550 Hello Ian1954 I was wondering what this is a pic of ? I enjoyed the videos Thanks ( banned ) ?? maybe I did nt read it right but I did not see where they were not going to let u enter with RTP in this event. Getback Eric RC Plane

P.s. that was a very nice jester of you to give up your prize. Shocked

ian1954 Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:37 am

getback wrote:https://servimg.com/view/17712579/550 Hello Ian1954 I was wondering what this is a pic of ? I enjoyed the videos Thanks ( banned ) ?? maybe I did nt read it right but I did not see where they were not going to let u enter with RTP in this event. Getback Eric P.s. that was a very nice jester of you to give up your prize.

It is the ring that slides up and down the pole and the lines are attached to it. It was built from an idea of Roddies.

Banned is too strong a description. It was proposed and seconded to remove RTP from the contest, then agreed so that the playing field could be levelled. Although, I didn't time it - that plane flew for over four hours this weekend at an average speed of 25mph.

roddie Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:44 pm

Thoroughly impressive Ian!! The throttle works very nicely! Naturally I have a few comments/questions/suggestions.. Rolling Eyes

I agree that a larger area with a longer tether would help. (I'm amazed at what you've achieved in such a small space!) I want to try this myself.. and I have to wonder whether an "elevator-only" model might be better for this? I think it would be more effective with pitch control; given a mono-line tether arrangement? Flaps "could" be counter-productive for this app.

Have you tested an adjustable lead-out guide for the tether? This "may" help you to fine-tune pitch axis.

"Roll" is another force entering into the equation... and while you're flying CCW in an "upright" orientation; your R/H prop is rolling the model "inwards". If you were running a "reedie"; it would be as easy as throwing a L/H prop on to check the effects. With the Medallion.. you'd have to set the model up to fly CW. We would "hope" to be able to stunt with RTP.. so hopefully torque-roll isn't a big factor.. because this effect reverses when inverted.

I also wonder whether a rigid pole would make a difference in the way the model "tracks"? I noticed that the model flies "straight" just fine.. but at times; not level with the ground. Something is causing this to happen.. and it's "too small" a circle, combined with "too fast" a speed to correct pitch. (i.e. hands-off; it's a diving at 12:00 and a climbing at 6:00 Huh...

) Something tells me that pole-flex is transmitted to the model affecting it's pitch-axis without control input. Two Cents

As far as slow-speed/throttled control-line flight is concerned; read-up on Control-Line "Navy-Carrier" designs. I've wanted to experiment with a carrier-type model for years. I think you'll find this very interesting.

Here's a 2010 Navy Carrier event vid at Huntersville, NC (the location where "Rusty" showed his stuff in C/L Stunt) This is how it's done!

Some links for your perusal..

http://www.cheffers.co.uk/carhist.html

http://carrier-deck.com/

http://flyinglines.org/Carrier.html

http://clflyer.tripod.com/ncs/ncs.htm

http://www.controllineworld.com/whatiscarriercl.html

rat9000 Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:27 pm

Thats just plane nuts,but I like it.

ian1954 Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:19 pm

I will run this plane again when I get the chance.

I looked at the links Roddie suggested and that is what I was trying to avoid - flying the plane at an acute angle. I was trying to get it almost level and slow.

I will see if I can get it to almost hover but because the lines are short I don't get much room to play.

Not sure about adjusting the leadout - there is only one. I can bend it forwards and backwards. The plane doesn't seem to fly skew whiff but I will have to film from the top of the house to see.

It does sometimes cantilever which could be the pole wobble. Not sure though. Again, more testing required.

I do recommend this plane though - it is a little toughy - some of the prangs I had didn't look gentle. I have the line as long as I dare and, at full tilt, when the pole bends it clouted those railway sleepers, the bushes and the ground a few times - no damage.

**Cribbs74** Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:39 pm

"Skew Whiff" I am going to write that down. Too funny.

I would really like to see what can be done on 40' lines. Suppose I could set that up myself if I wanted to see it.

If you have the time could you post a picture or two on the tether system you used?

Ron

ian1954 Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:56 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:"Skew Whiff" I am going to write that down. Too funny.

I would really like to see what can be done on 40' lines. Suppose I could set that up myself if I wanted to see it.

If you have the time could you post a picture or two on the tether system you used?

Ron

skew-whiff

This is a common British phrase meaning turned or twisted to one side.

William Shatner's toupe was less than convincing as it was frequently skew-whiff.

You've got your hat on skew-whiff

An equivalent word is "cockeyed"

I will take some pictures of the pole set up next time round.

**Cribbs74** Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:57 pm

Thanks Ian,

I really see this as a great way to continue to fly when I get too old to spin in circles. I get around a bit and I notice the older guys get dizzy, 70's 80's etc. It's a fact of life and I hope to be old one day.

Anyway... I was wondering about stunt potential and was wondering how to make the tether to pivot to allow wingover and overhead maneuvers.

Ron

ian1954 Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:26 am

Roddie drew this diagram

Round the Pole Fliying Rtp_st10

I interpreted as

Round the Pole Fliying Hummer10

At the moment this is free to slide up and down the pole. I had to do this because of the short lines.

If the lines were longer, I would permanently fix a ball bearing race at the top of the pole with the "loop" attached to that.

The pole is around four feet, the lines 7 feet - the angle is too great for a permanent pole top arrangement.

roddie Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:12 pm

I like Ian's interpretation of the bail. It's pretty slick! I understand his thinking with the 4+ ft. high pole.. because that would be an average "handle" height when a pilot is flying conventional control line. Where Ian only has (barely) enough clearance in his yard to use a 7 ft. tether with his model, I have to wonder whether a "shorter" pole of say; 6-12" might work better? I've watched several YouTube vids of indoor electric R.T.P. flights.. and the tether lengths vary.. but the poles have all been rigid with no flex.
One major thing to consider with outdoor "Round-the-Pole" tethered-flying is; that you are at the mercy of the wind. Backing-up or "whipping" to gain lost line-tension is not possible.. so I would think that the generous use of thrust-offset as well as rudder offset would help the model to stay tight on the lines throughout the flight.

**Cribbs74** Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:33 pm

Good point Roddie. The wind could be a big deal. Good thing is you still have some control of the flight path. You could always climb if you lose tension and regain it at the top I suppose.

ian1954 Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:53 am

The KK Radian has an offset rudder and 2 or 3 degrees offset on the motor. No tip weight, it falls slowly to starboard with the weight of the silencer (muffler).

My flying area is sheltered so even though there have been gusty conditions when flying the "wind" hasn't affected the plane. There is, though, considerable "pull" on those lines.

One incident, I was distracted by my waitress service and the delivery of a mug of coffee, I hadn't placed the plane ready for take off. The lines were slack and the plane about 18" inboard. The plane lifted and tautened the lines straight away.

I suppose some of this depends on the model and the gusts.

I thought about line tension and then thought it not quite so important with RTP. If the lines slacken in CL - you lose control of the elevator. Doesn't apply with this RTP set up. You are always in control of engine, ailerons and elevator. Another 1/2 oz for a rudder servo ......... you could even do a fancy rudder elevator linkage!

roddie Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:39 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Good point Roddie. The wind could be a big deal. Good thing is you still have some control of the flight path. You could always climb if you lose tension and regain it at the top I suppose.

Yes.. and since you're probably using a radio with at least 4 channels.. it would be interesting to add rudder-offset control. You could possibly "mix" rudder-offset angle with elevator input similar to how the control-line "Rabe" rudder concept works. I think it would be fun; as well as worth while, to experiment with this for R.T.P flying control.

dckrsn Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Stumbled across this while surfing TeeDee .020 videos.
Truckee California.
How did we not hear about these folks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB-32wqGx9I
Bob

roddie Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:37 pm

dckrsn wrote:Stumbled across this while surfing TeeDee .020 videos.
Truckee California.
How did we not hear about these folks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB-32wqGx9I
Bob

Thoroughly enjoyable!!! That's a good question Bob! They've certainly got a "family-friendly", organized, safe and well-attended annual event going there!

dckrsn Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:31 pm

roddie wrote:Thoroughly enjoyable!!! That's a good question Bob! They've certainly got a "family-friendly", organized, safe and well-attended annual event going there!

Yep, looks like tons of fun, and light hearted competition.
They sure know how to make a PeeWee sing. Wonder what
props they were using.
Bob

roddie Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:19 pm

Bumped this thread (pokes Ian..) because I started thinking.. Rolling Eyes

about RTP flying again through Bob's RTP is back! thread.

To apply this to near-conventional line-length is key.. unless it's for indoor use with very lightweight airplanes. For out of doors.. Ian used a pole that was pretty much the correct height, as compared to holding a control line handle in one's hand. I feel that the pole needs to be rigid.. like a piece of steel electrical-conduit anchored in the ground like the old clothes-line poles were. Laughing

You could do it by burying a 5gal. bucket in the center of your circle and filling it with concrete and a sleeve for the pole. Fashion the top of the pole with the aforementioned bail and bearing.. and you now have the stunting hemisphere to play with. With radio-control.. you have options that you wouldn't otherwise have. You also can't whip or take a few steps back to gain control.. but "can" throttle-down and add flaps as Ian did. I thought about taking it a step further.. with flight-adjustable "rake" of the lead-out. That could be done by installing a servo somewhere in the inboard wing.. to move the guide's "eye" position fore and aft. I think it might help with slow-speed passes. It's a proven concept with Navy-Carrier models. Ian wanted to attain "near-level" slow-speed flight.. but with tethered flight.. there's different forces in effect. You have to pitch the model on the ragged edge of a stall.. nose-high.. whilst feathering the throttle.

fredvon4 Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:58 am

Roddie said

"I think it might help with slow-speed passes. It's a proven concept with Navy-Carrier models. Ian wanted to attain "near-level" slow-speed flight.. but with tethered flight.. there's different forces in effect. You have to pitch the model on the ragged edge of a stall.. nose-high.. whilst feathering the throttle."

My original thought ( not added to the thread back then) for slow flight, was the wing needed to be better lift profile and larger to lower the wing loading and have a much better power off glide ratio....

Done this way, I would suspect at faster speeds DOWN trim would be the norm and slow (idle power) flight would be where the plane is trimmed for

Also RTP or true C/L, tip weight or asymmetrical wing or both is still needed to off set flying line weight and drag although admittedly at 7 foot I doubt any Tip weight is that critical

ARUP Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:47 am

I don't have anything to add other than the vids were fun to watch!

stuntflyr Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:32 am

Cool. RTP has always fascinated me for whatever weird reason.
The Aaroone Cup, that is Jim Aaron, CD for many events including C/L Stunt in which he is a top builder and competitor. He has made a lot of good vids, his best is Leave it to Shareen.
Chris...

roddie Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:51 pm

I seem to remember a RTP set-up listed in the small side-bar ads in the pages of M.A.N. back in the 1960's. It had a checkerboard painted center pylon IIRC. The top of the pylon had a vertical handle/fixture with line connectors that turned in a bearing. I'm thinking something similar to a swash-plate was used to alter the angle of the handle. Anybody remember?

A web search this morning came up with this site, which specializes in EP-RTP. Some very cool stuff here.

The RTP Hut

ian1954 Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:45 pm

Electric RTP with powered wires still has a following

It is also used for experimentation - not always successfully

I first started RTP converting stick and tissue rubber powered models and I found this chaps attempts interesting

There is nothing to stop scale

or combat

roddie Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:34 am

I really hope that Ian gets back to this when he has a chance. One observation of the rubber-powered model vid he posted (really cool.. Watch it if you haven't seen it!) shows the models with R/H props flying clockwise. Being as lightweight as they are.. I think that this is needed for line-tension by rolling the model outward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtGamCXObTw

I've spent a good amount of time thinking about RTP.. and an alternate method of attaching a mono-line to the model. I was envisioning a "bridle" of sorts; having two points of attachment like a tether-car or boat. I'm not sure how/where Ian has his line attached.. but I think it's a single lead-out. A bridle attached with one end centered at the inboard wing-tip and the other to the stabilizer's inboard tip, would provide a lot adjustability to the model's yaw-axis without affecting pitch. Pitch-axis is infinite because of the mono-line arrangement. (right???) The mono-line would be tied (knotted) to the center of the bridle-line.. and the bridle attachment-points would also be knotted.. but have the provision for wrapping them around a pin/post to adjust their length.. and secure with a clip of some sort to hold the yaw-setting.

Anyway.. "Fred's" wing airfoil-profile comment makes a lot of sense too, in order to have effective slow/throttled-flight ability. Those rubber-powered RTP models in the vid. fly slow and level. I think another attempt would be to build bigger and as lightweight as possible (I.E. a "floater").. while keeping the CG on the ragged-edge. (??)

ian1954 Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:42 pm

I am trimming a model for RTP and 52ft lines. It will be a twist on RTP.

For me to know and everyone to wonder - why, how and what for? In the mean time - Tired w/ Coffee Read

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