Hobbico's "Cox Super Fuel"

Cribbs74 wrote:I think I would prefer them to revise the formula.

We Should all send Hobbico a letter to tell them that their fuel is incorrect and none of us uses it. Attach one or all copies of this with it. Glow Power Fuel Flight Power Fuel and Race Power Fuel

It might be easier to make an online petition. More participation that way.

Edit: We can even do it here and sign it here.

I am all for the suggestions made here on CEF, some good suggestions including the petition.
Before writing here, I just sent a note on the Hobbico website, so I didn't see your'all responses, and I wish I had saved a copy of what I wrote on their online contact form before clicking "send".

If I get a response from them that includes my note, i will post it here as a seed of action to respond to Hobbico. I was short and to the point - let's see what they respond with.
Hobbico is very proud of themselves for creating this megalith of product distribution - and we see the results of that aggregation - irresponsible product with horrible customer responses like "just add castor oil". They show they do not understand the community base.

In my $$ numbers above, I showed what it costs to send to NY - home of REGULATIONS!!!
I pay as much in shipping fees as the product and that is why it runs up to $50 a gallon for a guy like me in good ol' NY State.

I picked up a good tip from your comments - I need to get to an event where fuel is sold - excellent idea. That will be an event in the NY-CT-NJ-PA corner where i live...

Stay tuned!.....

Best,
Poughkeepsie Pete
AMA 1047551

I've used this chart to mix my own using powermaster masterbasher fuel and I like it better than sig.

http://www.coxinternational.ca/files/castor.xls

My next batch I will use their 30% heli fuel, if I remember correctly it should make 25% with the added castor.

Jim

I'm sure everything will be different out here, but I tend to mix my own fuel.  Aircraft fuel is getting scarce in local hobby shops (of which there are few) but buggy fuel is readily available. I've never seen SIG fuel available anywhere.

I'll leave it to you to do the metric to imperial conversions.

I purchased a 20 litre drum of methanol from a local fuel distributor who stocks it for the local go-cart club.  It cost me around $36AU for the drum.  A while back we were doing a family road trip and I knew there was a fuel supplier near where we were travelling so I grabbed a 5 litre bottle of caster for $35 and a 5 litre bottle of nitromethane for $70.  If I'm to mix 25% nitro & 25% caster for my 1/2As then my cost per litre mixed is $6.15.  Fortunately there was no extra transport cost to factor in.

A local toy store had a 50% off voucher sale recently so I purchased 4 litres of Glo-Max 16% nitro buggy fuel for half price at $25.  I contacted the manufacturer about the oil content which they claim was 18% total which included caster but they would not disclose the mix.  I can use this as is in my larger engines and those without a ball/socket rod/piston joint.

I used this calculator http://www.nitrorc.com/default2.asp?Introduction=http://www.nitrorc.com/fuelws/ to mix some up to a suitable blend for my Cox engines to compare performance with my home mixed blend.  Using the calculator I took 500 ml of Glo-Max fuel, added 85 ml of nitro and 75 ml of caster and I now have fuel with 25% nitro & 25% oil, of which I know 11.36% is caster plus whatever caster was already in the mix.  I figure that's plenty for any 1/2A, plain bushed or iron piston engine.  I have the added benefit of having some cleaner synth in the mix as well.  I haven't found an affordable source of synthetic oil locally yet.

Rod the Aussie.

JPvelo wrote:I've used this chart to mix my own using powermaster masterbasher fuel and I like it better than sig.

http://www.coxinternational.ca/files/castor.xls

My next batch I will use their 30% heli fuel, if I remember correctly it should make 25% with the added castor.

Jim

Hey Jim, this is great, nice add. I got into that file and I am glad I scratched out the numbers by hand before so I had a bit of a feel of how the ratios change as you add one or another ingredient. nice to have a straightforward calculator and this brings me options.

Now I have to see what they are charging for car fuel at the LHS, or if they even have this.
All the Gallon jugs of fuel are in the $25-$30 range these days - I think because NY State has so many hazardous material restrictions.

I tried to find 1/2A events in NY State but didn't come upon any - not a big thing up here, I guess.

Cheers, Peter

Thanks Rod - you have me looking online for local race tracks, now!
When I used to belong to a full-scale flying club, we were by a race track and Fridays and Saturdays guys would be coming over to get 100LL fuel for the races. I have to find out where the guys where I am now get their methanol, etc.
Cheers, Poughkeepsie Pete

Oldenginerod wrote:I'm sure everything will be different out here, but I tend to mix my own fuel.  Aircraft fuel is getting scarce in local hobby shops (of which there are few) but buggy fuel is readily available. I've never seen SIG fuel available anywhere.

I'll leave it to you to do the metric to imperial conversions.

I purchased a 20 litre drum of methanol from a local fuel distributor who stocks it for the local go-cart club.  It cost me around $36AU for the drum.  A while back we were doing a family road trip and I knew there was a fuel supplier near where we were travelling so I grabbed a 5 litre bottle of caster for $35 and a 5 litre bottle of nitromethane for $70.  If I'm to mix 25% nitro & 25% caster for my 1/2As then my cost per litre mixed is $6.15.  Fortunately there was no extra transport cost to factor in.

A local toy store had a 50% off voucher sale recently so I purchased 4 litres of Glo-Max 16% nitro buggy fuel for half price at $25.  I contacted the manufacturer about the oil content which they claim was 18% total which included caster but they would not disclose the mix.  I can use this as is in my larger engines and those without a ball/socket rod/piston joint.

I used this calculator http://www.nitrorc.com/default2.asp?Introduction=http://www.nitrorc.com/fuelws/ to mix some up to a suitable blend for my Cox engines to compare performance with my home mixed blend.  Using the calculator I took 500 ml of Glo-Max fuel, added 85 ml of nitro and 75 ml of caster and I now have fuel with 25% nitro & 25% oil, of which I know 11.36% is caster plus whatever caster was already in the mix.  I figure that's plenty for any 1/2A, plain bushed or iron piston engine.  I have the added benefit of having some cleaner synth in the mix as well.  I haven't found an affordable source of synthetic oil locally yet.

Rod the Aussie.

I was at the hobby shop this afternoon and they had two bottles of the Hobbico Cox fuel. I was talking with the owner's wife about a couple of things, and pointed to the bottles and explained how the stuff would kill the engines of any customers who bought it for their Coxes and why. She just tuned me out. Oh, well. I've steered a couple of people away from the fuel, and I'll continue to.

The Trying to be Helpful Mark

batjac wrote:I was at the hobby shop this afternoon and they had two bottles of the Hobbico Cox fuel.  I was talking with the owner's wife about a couple of things, and pointed to the bottles and explained how the stuff would kill the engines of any customers who bought it for their Coxes and why. She just tuned me out.  Oh, well.  I've steered a couple of people away from the fuel, and I'll continue to. The Trying to be Helpful Mark

She probably doesn't know the difference. Hobbico is considered a reputable marketeer. They do have some good people working for them. In this case, this decision by someone, whoever that person was, did not research into the requirements of these small engines with foks like Bernie at Cox International, Larry Renger, Joe Wagner or any of the other modeling authorities on small plain bearing engines with ball and socket piston/con rod joint.

So, you being a relative stranger to her, figured you weren't an authority and thus to her it was just another complaint, probably.

About the only way would be someone with some modeling knowledge and authority to speak directly to Hobbico and explain the problem. Problem probably is that bean counters are in control, and if they don't see a drop in sales, will continue what they are doing, just like Testors did with the old Testors 39 fuel eons ago, IYKWIM.

I doubt she has even heard of Bernie, Matt, Joe or Larry either.

How about this for a conspiracy theory -

A collector of Cox engines is a major model fuel manufacturer. The manufacturer creates a fuel at a reasonably low price that wrecks Cox engines.

His collection increases in value as engines and parts become rarer.

Here it is easy to get fuel made up or the liquids to make your own - but difficult to get it delivered. Buy and collect - either from the manufacturer or make an arrangement to collect at a show where they are exhibiting.

"Buggy" fuel (non castor) is easy to get in model shops, diesel fuel is difficult along with castor based fuel. (Diesel fuel is usually castor only because of the higher temperatures)

From what we understand the Hobbico (rebranded Cox) fuel is 20% oil, of which 1/2 is castor oil; so it should be fine for Cox engines.

Cox International wrote:From what we understand the Hobbico (rebranded Cox) fuel is 20% oil, of which 1/2 is castor oil; so it should be fine for Cox engines.

Following is stated from Tower Hobbies Tower Hobbies: Cox Super Power 1/2A Fuel 25% Nitro Quart

Tower Hobbies wrote:NOTES FROM OUR TECH DEPARTMENT
This is the quart (946ml) Bottle of Super Power 1/2A Fuel from Cox. FEATURES

• Premium blend 25% nitro formula is ideal for model airplane, car, or boat use
  
• Special 18% oil package consists of 90% synthetic, and 10% castor lubricant blend
  
• Latest high-tech synthetics combined with castor protects and lubricates the aluminum journals and plain steel bearings used in small displacement engines
  

Cox International wrote:From what we understand the Hobbico (rebranded Cox) fuel is 20% oil, of which 1/2 is castor oil; so it should be fine for Cox engines.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXDBNH&P=8

If you scroll down to the product features, it states "Special 18% oil package consists of 90% synthetic, and 10% castor lubricant blend"


**Oops, GallopingGhostler beat me to it!

OUCH!

I thought they once told me the mix had 10% castor oil. I guess what they meant was 10% of the oil was castor. Definitely DO NOT use this fuel on Cox engines.

I just called them and will follow up with an email.

Pete,

I guess you are the gent that sent us the mail re. fuel you bought from us. Theresa responded to let you know that we do not sell fuel; hence we could not have supplied it to you.

We would like to make it clear that we are in no way involved with Hobbico and / or the fuel they sell. If the mix of their fuel is indeed 10% castor / 90% synthetic then we would not recommend it, as it will invariably lead to engine damage.

We are currently compiling an email to Hobbico to make them aware of the fuel issue.

PeterJGregory wrote:

Cox engines are rather peculiar in lacking a wrist pin.  The required motion is done with a ball and socket joint, and the socket part of that bearing is the piston.  Very few other engines do this.  The piston gets very hot, and it will cook out any oil other than castor.

Thank you for a clear explanation about this castor oil issue.
I am absolutely mesmorized by this discussion. I paid almost $50 for a gallon of Cox Super Fuel from Tower, to find out it doesn't work!!!
I just sent Tower a question about why they sell this stuff when it destroys Cox engines.
Very interesting that the ultimate problem is not the cylinder wall varnishing, but the breakdown of the ball-and-socket.

Now to hear back what Tower has to say about this.
Better yet, I need to contact the Cox people putting this stuff out.

What can you use the Cox Super Fuel for if not for Cox engines? The other small engines are OK with this stuff?

Thanks, Poughkeepsie Pete

I guess it never really dawned on me, but even though this is a Cox brand (sort of) it only says 1/2A fuel on the bottle.

1/2A is a pretty broad spectrum and on some engines that mix may work just fine.

Cribbs74 wrote:I guess it never really dawned on me, but even though this is a Cox brand (sort of) it only says 1/2A fuel on the bottle.

1/2A is a pretty broad spectrum and on some engines that mix may work just fine.

That's true, if not for the ball socket they might be okay with less castor. Out of curiosity I just looked at NVengines.com and they say, "Use the proper oil mixture. Requirements - minimum 18-22% oil in the fuel with 50% being Castor oil in engines smaller than .15 and at least 25% castor in larger." The MP Jets say no less that 20% castor too, so Cox isn't alone in the high castor requirements.
Rusty

We sent the following email to  airsupport@hobbico.com

Hello Justin,

As discussed on the phone with you, Hobbico product # COXP1005 Cox Super Power 1/2A Fuel, if indeed a mix of 90% synthetic and 10% castor oil, will almost certainly damage Cox engines if used in such.

There have been extensive tests performed with various castor / synthetic oil mixes and although, under some ideal circumstances, one could use as little as 25% castor / 75% synthetic mix, the consensus is that a 50% castor / 50% synthetic mix or better should be used to prevent engine damage.

This is due to the unique nature of Cox engines, with no piston rings, OEM tolerances of 2 /1,000,000” on cylinder / piston fit and Cox’s unique ball and socket joint for the piston / conrod assembly. Basically, Cox engines were engineered to require castor oil and no synthetic oil currently available (that we are aware of) would be a good substitute for castor oil.

In 2009 we purchased over 25,000 Cox engines, together with several pallets of other Cox items and are currently the world’s largest distributor of legacy Cox products. We would be most happy to include Hobbico as a recommended vendor for Cox engine fuel but can only recommend fuel that does not potentially lead to premature engine failure.

Perhaps you could forward our email to the person or persons in charge of fuel procurement. Please feel free to contact the undersigned at any time should you or someone else have any questions. FYI, there is an ongoing thread about your fuel on the Cox Engine Forum, located here:  https://www.coxengineforum.com/t5113-hobbico-s-cox-super-fuel  which should give you more technical insight as to why synthetic oils alone should not be used with Cox engines.

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

Bernie
For Cox International

Cribbs74 wrote:I guess it never really dawned on me, but even though this is a Cox brand (sort of) it only says 1/2A fuel on the bottle. 1/2A is a pretty broad spectrum and on some engines that mix may work just fine.

My Mehanite iron piston steel sleeve Enya instructions state 20% all Castor oil, but those are at least 35 years old. My ABC Fuji instructions, 30 years old, state 25% all Castor oil for general (CL stunt I imagine) and 20% for other uses (RC, speed, free flight). My Mehanite iron piston steel sleeve OS Max .10 RC cross scavenge engine instructions of 40 years ago states 25% Castor oil. My OS FP ABN Schneurle manual of 20 years ago states 25% Castor for (FAI fuel) general use, 20% Castor with 10% nitro.

Overall for engine health, whether steel or ABC/ABN, I gather that 20% oil is a standard. Use of 50% Castor and 50% synthetic is reasonable. Older engines with softer metals, such as the Testors McCoy's should use 25% oil.

Granted we oft don't find ideal fuels. I'm still learning, but I'm adding Castor oil to the standard hobby store shelf blends for aircraft. Couldn't hurt and I have nothing to lose and all to gain.  

Cox International wrote:We sent the following email to  airsupport@hobbico.com Hello Justin, As discussed on the phone with you, Hobbico product # COXP1005 Cox Super Power 1/2A Fuel, if indeed a mix of 90% synthetic and 10% castor oil, will almost certainly damage Cox engines if used in such. [...]

Thanks Bernie, I missed your message while complying mine, then got side tracked in a discussion with someone else meanwhile.

I'm glad that you are taking the lead in contact Hobbico. I hope they reformulate to standards or focus on another supplier for fuel. That basically leaves Sig Champion 25% fuel as meeting the requirement.

Here is our list of recommended vendors (from our on-line fuel guide). Ritch's Brew seems to be a favourite.

Cox International wrote:We sent the following email to  airsupport@hobbico.com

Hello Justin,

As discussed on the phone with you, Hobbico product # COXP1005 Cox Super Power 1/2A Fuel, if indeed a mix of 90% synthetic and 10% castor oil, will almost certainly damage Cox engines if used in such.

There have been extensive tests performed with various castor / synthetic oil mixes and although, under some ideal circumstances, one could use as little as 25% castor / 75% synthetic mix, the consensus is that a 50% castor / 50% synthetic mix or better should be used to prevent engine damage.

This is due to the unique nature of Cox engines, with no piston rings, OEM tolerances of 2 /1,000,000” on cylinder / piston fit and Cox’s unique ball and socket joint for the piston / conrod assembly. Basically, Cox engines were engineered to require castor oil and no synthetic oil currently available (that we are aware of) would be a good substitute for castor oil.

In 2009 we purchased over 25,000 Cox engines, together with several pallets of other Cox items and are currently the world’s largest distributor of legacy Cox products. We would be most happy to include Hobbico as a recommended vendor for Cox engine fuel but can only recommend fuel that does not potentially lead to premature engine failure.

Perhaps you could forward our email to the person or persons in charge of fuel procurement. Please feel free to contact the undersigned at any time should you or someone else have any questions. FYI, there is an ongoing thread about your fuel on the Cox Engine Forum, located here:  https://www.coxengineforum.com/t5113-hobbico-s-cox-super-fuel  which should give you more technical insight as to why synthetic oils alone should not be used with Cox engines.

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

Bernie
For Cox International

Thank you Bernie. A very well written letter IMHO. Hobbico could easily re-brand the stock that they have out there; by contacting their distributors with a letter of explanation.. and instructions to temporarily remove stock from inventory, until a new "label package" is sent out. Hobbico could also offer some incentives to these distributors.. for this inconvenience. It's a small price to pay, to protect their modeling reputation. The fuel that's already out there is certainly useful.. but it's irresponsible for them to continue to use the "Cox Super Fuel" trademark packaging.. if their product prematurely destroys "Cox" engines.