Hobbico's "Cox Super Fuel"

Bah, just mix up 100 oz at a time and put it in a standard 128 oz jug (that's a gallon BTW).  No problem.

I have looked into it, but my phone call to a place about 2 hours from me was less than helpful on the phone.  There is racing in my part of the country, and they do race on this kind of stuff, so it should be easier to get.

Phil

Not sure about the shipping, but this was easy to find


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00655PVAI

cribbs74 wrote:Not sure about the shipping, but this was easy to find

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00655PVAI

If they'll ship it to you that'd be the way to go.  Did you see this bit on the same page?

"Frequently Bought Together
Buy this with Torco RC Nitro 100% Methanol gallon today
Buy Together Today: $79.00 "

Good value for this day and age.  Wish I could get the stuff that cheap here.

Btw, a litre is all but a US quart.  A US quart is 946ml (or 0.946 litre)

I bought a gallon of Nitro and gallon of methane from the Torco E-bay site... WHY????

FREE SHIPPING

and not only that but it was here in less than 72 hours!

fredvon4 wrote:I bought a gallon of Nitro and gallon of methane from the Torco E-bay site... WHY????

FREE SHIPPING

and not only that but it was here in less than 72 hours!

Links?

Using the Torco methanal and nitro gallons and three pints of castor you can mix about 7 quarts of 25% N, 20%C with about half of the nitro left.
The methanal, nitro, castor cost about 100$, cost is about 14.50 a quart. Not enough savings to make it worth it, in my opinion.
Unless I made a gross math error.

I thought of mixing my own, but I really don't want a gallon or more of nitromethane in my shop. Certainly not in the house.

Fire hazard?

Yes.... the cost per quart gets high unless you already have a few gallons or Quarts of fuel and want to adjust for any of the three or four ingredients  


Methanol
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190467709852?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Nitromethane
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190692756364?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I also can mix small batches to experiment for a blend that is good for my weather, current compression ratio, and set up on say a Norvel Big Mig .061 or a fairly stout TD .051 using half the volume of the empty Hobbico 1/2 Pint bottles I have 

I got my Castor Oil and Klotz from Sig back when I had a large Balsa order and some e-mail offer for reduced or free shipping around Black Friday or some such typical "sale" event last year

A few years back I went to a chemical supply house downtown and they refused to sell me nitromethane. They said I need a special handlers license. I think they wanted about $35 for a gallon can of it. So yeah the $51.25 for the gallon posted above is probably not a bad price once you figure in the hazmat shipping and all that.

I think the Glow fuel supply I keep on hand (3 to 4 Gallons) is less a hazard in my heated and air conditioned Hanger/shop/craftroom/barn than the 15~20 gallons of gasoline stored in the crappy plastic red "gas cans" under the carport for my mowers and tractors.  

The glow fuel is all in tightly closed containers and I do all mixing and re-fueling operations outside... Thus a closed jug of 100% Methanol or Nitro-methane is not more hazard in my opinion

Of course a feller should not smoke near any of the fuels...be it lawn mower of Glow engine refueling operations

Horses for course guys. Or should I say
Different oils for different engines.
Cox engines weren't designed for castor oil
It was just the best oil around at the time.
Anyone who raced way back when will remember
Castrol R and the smell that cars and bikes
Running it left behind cos it was castor based.
When we ran E Class Mercs we had one go to
465000 miles before we sold it that was run on Mobil
1 synthetic.
However, the Cox ball and socket needs the sludge
That castor leaves behind to stay alive. Synth
Cannot provide the sludge.
Allied to this because 'on song' and too lean
is so close on these tiny engines, having Castor
Protects them in a way Synth can't.
Finally there used to be some idiot on here who's
Signature went something like,- 'making the mistakes
So you don't have to'..
One of the mistakes was using synth, yes they ran
A couple hundred rpm more but not for very
Long.
Anyone want any broken piston/rods?

Just a thought here maybe synthetic is not worse maybe it's really better?

bare with me on this...

Say you run the normal non synthetic fuel and when you have your motors purring like a kitten check there top speed RPM say 1600RPM example

Now you use a 25% nitro same as above but synthetic blend and you get your motor running it's highest RPM purring like a kitten and you RPM check it and it says   1800RPM! you say WOW synthetic must be slippery and making the motor gain RPM.... now the motor will fail faster at the extra RPM gained most likely what happens ,,, Keep with me now guy's..... now that you know this next time run your motor a bit richer so it stays in the same RPM range as with the castor oil  ( 1600RPM ) now maybe with the synthetic blend with the motor kept in the same rpm range as when using caster oil fuel maybe it won't break down heck maybe at the same RPM it runs cooler and will last longer? ... possible it breaks motors down do to extra high RPMs that the motors gain that they never where meant to reach.

this is 100% Possible why with synthetic motors break down.

A good Babe Bee will run 14-16K and a good TD will run 22K. Both use the same piston and each will last a lifetime if run properly using good fuel. RPM is not the killer.

Don't do it!
Against my own advice to use 5% minimum castor, I used the same fuel with ONLY K&B synthetic X2C oil (at 20%). The engines all ran an impressive +500 or more rpm faster for the first 8cc tank. Then they started becoming harder to start & the pistons started getting tighter until after 2-3 more runs the engines would no longer even work anymore. Back in the shop it appeared the all syn fuel caused the pistons to "grow" a bit (I think...). With diameters in the 50 millionth of an inch sizing, my own shop tools are marginal to measure pistons absolutely (w/o a holding fixture).
Even with piston & cyl. bore scrubbing, the pistons were still too tight.
The "fix" at present was just to re-fit smaller pistons back to my normal 'pinch flush w/ the plug land'. I haven't run the repaired (re-fitted) engines since....BUT I've learned my lesson!!

Cheers, Paul

Ok Was just a thought  

dinsdale wrote:Get yourself a metric measure and make life easy for yourself.  For a litre of fuel 8% = 80ml, 12% = 120ml and so on.  Even for difficult numbers:- 5.56% = 55.6ml, 12½% = 125ml.  How can you go wrong?  Join the developed world.

For one, we'd have to get used to calling our engines:

• 1/3 cc for .020
  
• 0.8 cc for .049
  
• 1.0 cc for .061
  
• 1.2 cc for .074
  
• 1.5 cc for .09
  
• 2.5 cc for .15
  
• 4.0 cc for .25
  
• 6.5 cc for .40
  

It is not bad of itself.   has gotten used to gram-cm for servo torque, grams for ounces, mm for inches wingspan, etc. It will be a while, but eventually it will happen.

But why is adult drink still measured in yards and pints in the  and  ?  

(Sorry for the dated reply but I couldn't resist.) 

Cox engines are rather peculiar in lacking a wrist pin.  The required motion is done with a ball and socket joint, and the socket part of that bearing is the piston.  Very few other engines do this.  The piston gets very hot, and it will cook out any oil other than castor.

Thank you for a clear explanation about this castor oil issue.
I am absolutely mesmorized by this discussion. I paid almost $50 for a gallon of Cox Super Fuel from Tower, to find out it doesn't work!!!
I just sent Tower a question about why they sell this stuff when it destroys Cox engines.
Very interesting that the ultimate problem is not the cylinder wall varnishing, but the breakdown of the ball-and-socket.

Now to hear back what Tower has to say about this.
Better yet, I need to contact the Cox people putting this stuff out.

What can you use the Cox Super Fuel for if not for Cox engines? The other small engines are OK with this stuff?

Thanks, Poughkeepsie Pete

RknRusty wrote:You'd have a hard time making it 50/50 oil, and still have the total oil content around 17-25%.

Here are the numbers to re-formulate Cox Super Fuel (CSF) to get an exact 50/50 Synth/Castor, keeping nitro at 25%, methanol at 55%, and total lubricant to 20%:

0. I am giving you the calculated amount of ingredients to add - I doubt you can measure to the .001 place - I gave you the numbers exactly for you to round as you please. But you have the actual numbers to start with.
1. You start with 32 oz CSF, add castor, methanol, and nitromethane to end up with 48.96 oz (round to 49 if you want).
2. You don't add synthetic lubricant, remains constant.
3. Castor Oil -add 4.608 oz
4. Methanol - add 8.688 oz
5. Nitromethane - add 3.24 oz

If anyone is interested I will post the calculations in Excel

So, If I can use CSF for other engines like Norvels and GP's, I won't reformulate (that is a question, will other small engines be OK on the CSF Synth/Castor mix?

Then, for my Cox engines, I will just buy the Sig 35 stuff and avoid purchasing headaches of raw materials.

Hope this helps,
Best,
Peter

PeterJGregory wrote:Thank you for a clear explanation about this castor oil issue. I am absolutely mesmorized by this discussion. I paid almost $50 for a gallon of Cox Super Fuel from Tower, to find out it doesn't work!!! [....] What can you use the Cox Super Fuel for if not for Cox engines? The other small engines are OK with this stuff? Thanks, Poughkeepsie Pete

As is, the Cox fuel has 16.2% synthetic oil and 1.8% Castor oil for a total of 18%. I think this may be a more practical solution.

If you add 12 ounces of Castor oil to your gallon of fuel, it will decrease the nitro percent to 22.9%, up Castor oil to 10%, reduce the synthetic to 14.8% and up total oil to 25%. However, since the added oil does not combust, it tends to dilute the fuel so that you set the needle slightly "richer" to compensate, so in reality it is still 25% nitro. Seeing that these engines are volumetrically displacement limited ....

Personally I'd add half that or 6 ounces Castor oil, which would give you 6.2% Castor oil, 15.5% synthetic, which would be 21.7% oil total, just make sure I don't run the engine excessively lean or overload by over-propping, but that is me, YMMV (your mileage may vary).  

Additional comment 8/4/2014, 8:52 MDT: The fuel as is should be okay for your standard ball bearing supported crankshaft Schneurle ported ABC engines.

This thread makes me consider stocking up on Sig's "Champion" 25 and 35. They're all I'd ever run in my Cox engines.. period. If Hobbico cared about our engines.. they would have stopped marketing that fuel under the Cox name by now.

I'm glad that "Poughkeepsie Pete" wrote a letter to Tower Hobbies regarding selling it. Maybe they'll consider discontinuing it.

I think I would prefer them to revise the formula.

roddie wrote:This thread makes me consider stocking up on Sig's "Champion" 25 and 35.

Ouch - I took a look at costs of that Champion from Sig and shipping hazardous materials adds $28.50 on a $22.50 a gallon.
I broke out the calculator - Here’s sharing out costs for formulating 1/2A fuel yourself – sanity check:

The three options for fuel that I know about all come out about $50/gallon
1- Cox (not a real option)
2- Sig Championship either25% or 35% nitro, with shipping fees
3- Ordering ingredients from internet and blending yourself - from eBay, etc.:
3a) Torco Nitromethane $51.25 delivered, gallon
3b)Torco Methanol - $27.75 delivered, gallon (Get two to match mixing ratio with Nitro - $55.50)
3c) Klotz BeNOL BC-172 $11 quart + $6 shipping (to simplify ordering, get 2 - you need approx 1q + 1pint)
OR from Klotz - @ $16.36 quart -
3d) Klotz Modelube synthetic (ordering from Klotz)– KL–310 pint $8.45/pint x 3 pints - $25.35 + $14.95 shipping + $4.97 environmental fee

Summary
$52.25 Nitro – 1 gallon
$55.50 Methanol – 2 gallons
$32.72 Castor – 2 quarts
$45.27 Klotz Modelube – 3 pints
---------------------------
$185.74 for approximately 3.5 gallons
$53.07 a gallon

This is considering you dispose of all excess material i.e. don’t use in the future.
For all the work in ordering and mixing and storing, for me, I might as well buy Sig…