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Cox Engine of The Month
Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Yeah, false pressure can be a problem, and not only with 1/2-As. The bladder compartment should be sized to it doesn't squeeze the bladder to a smaller diameter, yet if it's too big, the bladder can migrate outboard due to centrifugal force and stretch/pinch the fuel tubing. The usual procedure is the "train" the bladder to fill from the end first and fill it while tugging slightly on the fuel tubing. If you don't do this the bladder can "run into" the side of the bladder compartment as you fuel the model and this leads to false pressure.
As to the difference between upright and inverted flight, I'd suggest checking to see if the fuel tubing isn't sagging and binding - there are things that can put weight on the tubing, namely clips and connectors. I don't think fuel hitting the glow plug element would have much effect.
Something else to mention - if your prop has a lot of pitch, the engine will lean out as the prop unloads, so you should launch a little on the rich side. Back when I started to fly Combat some people would use 7 or 8 inch pitch props (with Fox Combat Specials) and you had to launch QUITE rich.
Iskandar
As to the difference between upright and inverted flight, I'd suggest checking to see if the fuel tubing isn't sagging and binding - there are things that can put weight on the tubing, namely clips and connectors. I don't think fuel hitting the glow plug element would have much effect.
Something else to mention - if your prop has a lot of pitch, the engine will lean out as the prop unloads, so you should launch a little on the rich side. Back when I started to fly Combat some people would use 7 or 8 inch pitch props (with Fox Combat Specials) and you had to launch QUITE rich.
Iskandar
iskandar taib- Bronze Member
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Join date : 2012-10-26
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Were certainly not dealing with Combat Specials here. My suggestion about the fuel being thrown into the element was strictly due to how the engine reacted prior to going into the outside loop. You do here the engine go rich which is very typical of an engine mounted on it's side due to the g-forces of the fuel being forced up the bypass. I can't explain as to why the engine won't lean completely. I do feel however that Jim did in fact did leave marginal room on his setting in the event the engine unloaded due to the burbling richness in level flight. The reed could be suspect here and my experience with trying to run a reed on bladder is none. I do know that many times certain engines do go rich in the outside no matter what fuel system your running. As to why his needle is only open a 1/4 turn at this point in unexplainable. I personally would press in a new spraybay and needle as something in there sounds suspect. I for one have discovered 3 types of different threads on these needles. I never found a 128tpi needle that had a black finger knob on them. This doesn't mean they don't exist, just my experience. I've only found the fine threaded needle to only be available on the red production back plate. This would also include the postage stamp as well. Again, I'm basing my findings from my stock of parts over the years and I'm not educated enough in the field of Cox backplates to say what was made and what wasn't. I do know when it comes to discovering one, I screw it into my Kustom Kraftmanship Tee Dee spraybar to insure that indeed I do have the proper thread. I also don't generally have these needles almost closed down as in Jim's situation.
In regards to the Combat Special, this past weekend I was trying to run a few and was faced with nothing but problems. These engines, as violent as they may sound are generally real puppy dogs when it comes to user friendly. Yes, I typically launch so rich that I have to continuously keep pinching the bladder prior to launch as the fuel is just pouring into the case. The higher the nitro the richer the launch that's required. For reasons unknown, I couldn't get my engines to run. Maybe the weather?, maybe the planets weren't aligned. I can just say that regardless of experience and knowledge, were all going to be plagued by the bad engine run day and nothing other than experimentation and patience is going to solve these problems.Ken
In regards to the Combat Special, this past weekend I was trying to run a few and was faced with nothing but problems. These engines, as violent as they may sound are generally real puppy dogs when it comes to user friendly. Yes, I typically launch so rich that I have to continuously keep pinching the bladder prior to launch as the fuel is just pouring into the case. The higher the nitro the richer the launch that's required. For reasons unknown, I couldn't get my engines to run. Maybe the weather?, maybe the planets weren't aligned. I can just say that regardless of experience and knowledge, were all going to be plagued by the bad engine run day and nothing other than experimentation and patience is going to solve these problems.Ken
Ken Cook- Top Poster
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Hmmm.. yeah, I'd forgotten about the fuel-in-the-bypass thing - it mainly comes up in relation to the Fox .35 Stunt "burp" (where the usual remedy is to put a popsicle stick into the bypass). Never considered it happening on other engines, but yeah, it's a possible explanation.
Iskandar
Iskandar
iskandar taib- Bronze Member
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Join date : 2012-10-26
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Did some mods today and got good results. The first mod was drilling out the backplate with a 13/64ths bit, the biggest I could go and still have a reed seat left.
https://i.imgur.com/W0E2v.jpg
Drilled out plate on the left next to stock plate for comparison.
Mod number two was to replumb the fuel system using a fuel filter to step down the tubing size and restrict fuel flow. Built the whole thing up with a #1 cylinder and nelson style glow head.
https://i.imgur.com/2seXV.jpg
Ran this setup on the ground and was just breaking lean with the needle open 1 1/4 turn and running 19,000 rpm. If it doesn't rain tomorrow morning I will get this thing in the air.
Jim
https://i.imgur.com/W0E2v.jpg
Drilled out plate on the left next to stock plate for comparison.
Mod number two was to replumb the fuel system using a fuel filter to step down the tubing size and restrict fuel flow. Built the whole thing up with a #1 cylinder and nelson style glow head.
https://i.imgur.com/2seXV.jpg
Ran this setup on the ground and was just breaking lean with the needle open 1 1/4 turn and running 19,000 rpm. If it doesn't rain tomorrow morning I will get this thing in the air.
Jim
JPvelo- Diamond Member
- Posts : 1972
Join date : 2011-12-02
Age : 57
Location : Colorado
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
The fuel flow restrictor and the bored out Venturi worked perfectly. I was getting 19.7-20k in the tach right before launch on this one.
So for everyone following along at home more air plus less fuel equals lean run [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alnT5vEbODM&feature=youtube_gdata_player [/youtube]
So for everyone following along at home more air plus less fuel equals lean run [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alnT5vEbODM&feature=youtube_gdata_player [/youtube]
JPvelo- Diamond Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Sounded good, couldn't see it though
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Holy @!%* JP, I almost dove under the desk when you cranked it! Sounds like you're cooking now. You might want to get a Killer Bee crank for your spare parts. Please tell me that was a 5" prop. Make extra sure it's balanced at that speed. If it was getting 19k on the ground, you were probably pushing 22 in the air.
5 second laps. You must have it on long lines. Tell me the length and we'll know your approximate mph.
So, how do you like running on bladders now?
5 second laps. You must have it on long lines. Tell me the length and we'll know your approximate mph.
So, how do you like running on bladders now?
_________________
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while you're doing it!
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RknRusty- Rest In Peace
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Bladder is the only way to go once you get it all sorted out, and as a bonus you get extremely easy starting. Lines are 43 feet but it was slowed down by the wind, check out the palm tree on the left side of the screen. Installing a killer bee crank later today so I can see what it will do with a apc prop!
JPvelo- Diamond Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
The prop in the video is a flexi black cox prop cut down to five inches.
JPvelo- Diamond Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Be sure and dull the tips and edges. You know what A-P-C stands for, don't you.JPvelo wrote:Bladder is the only way to go once you get it all sorted out, and as a bonus you get extremely easy starting. Lines are 43 feet but it was slowed down by the wind, check out the palm tree on the left side of the screen. Installing a killer bee crank later today so I can see what it will do with a apc prop!
The height adds to the inaccuracy, but I just like to toy with it. When I videoed my Li'l Satan last Saturday, I flew 5 shoulder height laps on purpose so I could get a good time index on it. I'll do the math later, I have to wash dishes now.
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...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
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My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!
My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
RknRusty- Rest In Peace
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
I was getting some good rpm's on my Tee Dee with the Apc 4.5 x 3.5 and the 4.2 x 4. They do need a bit of sanding. They also make a 4.6 x 3 which I clip a additional 1/8" to 1/4" off the tips. After I clip the tips, I don't leave them squared off as that seriously decreases the effectiveness of the prop. I taper and round the leading edge of the prop back to the ends after I trim. This really gives the prop decent bite. Ken
Last edited by Ken Cook on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Ken Cook- Top Poster
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
could some one post a link to Rustys bladder seting up video? plz
ekitten2- Gold Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Here you go. Lots of bits and pieces but super easy and well worth the effort.ekitten2 wrote:could some one post a link to Rustys bladder seting up video? plz
Jim
JPvelo- Diamond Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Here you go. Lots of bits and pieces but super easy and well worth the effort.
Jim
i dont see a link? :-)
Jim
i dont see a link? :-)
ekitten2- Gold Member
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JPvelo- Diamond Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
many fanks :-)
ekitten2- Gold Member
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
is there any reasion this set up wouldent work on a RC plane?
ekitten2- Gold Member
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Join date : 2011-08-08
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
I don't see why not, as long as it's not throttled.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
oh "throtles" would stuff it up then?
to use an old phrase...why is it so?
to use an old phrase...why is it so?
ekitten2- Gold Member
- Posts : 335
Join date : 2011-08-08
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Can't say with 100% certainty, but seeing as your fuel is being fed at a constant pressure then your air probably should be Constant too. Just a thought, others may have something to say.
Ron
Ron
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
I'll ask Jacob if we can sticky that thread.ekitten2 wrote:could some one post a link to Rustys bladder seting up video? plz
_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!
My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!
My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
RknRusty- Rest In Peace
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
RknRusty wrote:I'll ask Jacob if we can sticky that thread.ekitten2 wrote:could some one post a link to Rustys bladder seting up video? plz
Excellent Idea! I know I have gone back to look a few times for the video's. They are in your Youtube library right?
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
Yep. Now they are stickied at the top of the "Models and Modeling" forum too.cribbs74 wrote:RknRusty wrote:I'll ask Jacob if we can sticky that thread.ekitten2 wrote:could some one post a link to Rustys bladder seting up video? plz
Excellent Idea! I know I have gone back to look a few times for the video's. They are in your Youtube library right?
_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!
My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!
My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
RknRusty- Rest In Peace
- Posts : 10869
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 68
Location : South Carolina, USA
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
My one serious foray into RC was a HOB Two Tee glider with a Tee Dee .051 on the nose. I used a 6x3 prop, a 5x3 wouldn't climb as well. Being a combat pilot, the fuel tank was a bladder in one of the fuselage bays under the wing. Fuel tubing came out of a hole in the side of the fuse, and ran up to the front. I put a balloon around the bladder in case it burst (never did have one burst). One ounce of fuel would last many, many minutes (I didn't drill out the venturi). Eventually the rod broke (I think it was the ball joint).
Iskandar
Iskandar
iskandar taib- Bronze Member
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Join date : 2012-10-26
Re: Cranking up a reed valve cox on bladder pressure.
JPvelo wrote:Here's some bad video of me flying the pressure setup yesterday.
Where in PHX are you able to fly without the po-po showing up? I noticed in one of your other videos it looked like you were in a retention basin park, which are usually crawling with city park rangers. Timing is everything, I guess.
ahrma_581- Gold Member
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