Elbow or Wrist?

That elbow stuff is for those learning to fly.

George

I had always heard to use your elbow when learning to fly. I did not do this as I was not told before I started learning. I just used my wrist and integrated my elbow if I needed more throw.

Rolla

gcb wrote:That elbow stuff is for those learning to fly.

George

Hey!!!! We all have to start somewhere.

I guess I'm not wrong in using my wrist then.

To me, it feels like when you are using only your wrist, it is like flying with 100% rates and 0% exponential. When using your arm, it feels like 50% rates with 25% exponential.

it seemed like (flying AMA pattern) that I used mostly my arm, but on hourglass, square eights and cloverleaf, etc. i'd use some wrist...i think starting out you'd be a lot smoother with arm.

I always attributed my wrist-only style, as I was taught, for my retarded learning curve. I was probably on my second PT-19 before I was truly fun flying, climbs and dives, seeing how fast I could dive and pull out, touch and go, etc. My first plane was a total slag heap and probably never flew more than a lap. It was a black Stuka. Bad choice for a first plane.

To me, the Stuka was the best looking Cox plane. Unfortunately not much of a flyer, especially for the beginner.

One of the things that will guide whether to use elbow or wrist is whether you have your controls set-up correctly.

At the plane you should have controls initially set-up to with the pushrod closest to the pivot (minimum) and the control horn farthest from the pivot (minimum). Make sure you can adjust the pushrod position on the control horn so you can increase deflection when you are ready to do maneuvers. If you have external controls you can also adjust the bellcrank.

Make sure the pushrod does not flex under compression. If it does, you can install a pushrod guide.

Make sure at no time the pushrod pushes enough to impose force on the rudder other than normal deflection. This sometimes happens when the bellcrank outer hole is used, especially when inner holes are used at the control horn. At least that has been my experience.

At the other end of the lines make sure your handle is set correctly. If you are using a 2" bellcrank, you should consider 2" spacing between the lines. Even less if you are just learning to fly. That's where many make a mistake. If your handle has a 4" spacing between the lines (with that 2" bellcrank) you have a bellcrank that deflects twice as much as your hand. This is where elbow pivoting is great because the controls are too sensitive for wrist control.

Hope this makes sense and helps someone.

George

+1 on George's comments.

If you watch the pattern C/L flyers, they usually fly with a straight arm and keep all their manuvers very precise and controlled, following where their arm is pointed. OTOH, I've watched the fast combat guys flying with a slightly bent arm and almost all control is with the wrist.

andrew wrote:+1 on George's comments.

If you watch the pattern C/L flyers, they usually fly with a straight arm and keep all their manuvers very precise and controlled, following where their arm is pointed. OTOH, I've watched the fast combat guys flying with a slightly bent arm and almost all control is with the wrist.

Hmmm, so I guess you need to be proficient in both styles. If you want to be a diverse flyer. Thanks Andrew.

Ron

andrew wrote: If you watch the pattern C/L flyers, they usually fly with a straight arm and keep all their manuvers very precise and controlled, following where their arm is pointed. OTOH, I've watched the fast combat guys flying with a slightly bent arm and almost all control is with the wrist.

Actually, Precision Aerobatic (stunt) flyers use their wrist.

There is more to it than that. Some hold their arm straight out but many also bend their arm a bit. Once you have established your arm position, you need to address handle position. Move your wrist up and down full comfortable deflection, then establish a center of movement. This will determine YOUR neutral position. That coupled with your favorite arm position will determine how your control handle should be set-up for neutral. If you prefer flying with your arm out straight you may want to consider a "biased" handle, that is, one that with the lines at neutral has your hand tilted down about 15 degrees. This is approximately the position that gives your hand equal up and down movement.

George

Here's a never before seen photograph of the incomparable Joe Cocker wringing out a Flite Streak over the crowd at Woodstock in 1969. Note the bent elbow.

lousyflyer wrote:Here's a never before seen photograph of the incomparable Joe Cocker wringing out a Flite Streak over the crowd at Woodstock in 1969. Note the bent elbow.

That was my 'Streak. Wondered what he wanted it for.

OK, OK, Hold the BS Repellant. I give up.

George

lousyflyer wrote:Here's a never before seen photograph of the incomparable Joe Cocker wringing out a Flite Streak over the crowd at Woodstock in 1969. Note the bent elbow.

Oh now that's funny.......

I can't remember where, but I think I might have possibly seen that plane somewhere before, possibly around here.

fit90 wrote:I can't remember where, but I think I might have possibly seen that plane somewhere before, possibly around here.

I don't think Rusty will mind. Heck he is probably in that crowd somewhere!

I wish I knew how to photoshop. I think Roger Daltry swinging his microphone would make a good pose for a CL gag.

I think Roger Daltry would look really good swinging a balck and yellow Queen Bee C/L plane! I know where we can get a picture of a really nice Queen Bee.

Bob

Ok, the secret's out. That's the plane from Rusty's avatar.

But if Joe Cocker could fly, he would do it with a bent elbow. He's that good.

Yeah, I sing You are so beautiful, to Me e e e e to it before I close up the shop every night.

gcb wrote:
Actually, Precision Aerobatic (stunt) flyers use their wrist.

There is more to it than that. Some hold their arm straight out but many also bend their arm a bit.

I didn't mean to imply that they used the purely straight arm approach and relied only on the movement of their arm up and down. Centainly, on the square manuevers or those needing more deflection, the wrist movement is required for the additional control, but they usually follow their plane with their arm.

At the NATs, I was watching some of the fast combat flyers praciticing. In some situations, they flew with their arm at about a 80 degree bend and almost all of the control was wrist. I have always been amazed at how they can keep up with their plane. Most of the arm movement was just to maintain line tension.

Here is a video of one of my club members Mike Palko flying at Brodak's this year. Mike is a innovator of electric control line stunt ships. He scratch built this P-51 (Miss Bardhal) and it's one of the most beautiful stunt ships out there.The entire plane is Sig dope. You can see in this video how Mike keeps himself as steady as possible and just clean well rounded maneuvers. Mike has taken several 1st's this year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBY2rOEzOJM Ken

Beautiful.