FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY

TD ABUSER Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:47 pm

After learning how to fly with the LIL WHIZARD and THE SWORDSMAN I believe my next stop in this hobby was with the LIL SATAN.
This would have been 40 years ago, so I vaguely recall struggling with the much more complex build and with all of the little bits and pieces that make up the airframe.
The plane was flown with a Black Widow on 26 foot dacron string and all I can remember was that it was barely flyable with where ever the CG ended up.
So I looked up the plan and was amazed that a genuine Goldberg Lil Satan only has 19.5" of span..!
I chickened out and made this wing 22" x 6".
The LE is 1/2" x 1/2" soft balsa and I used TE stock that I cut down to 5/16" x 1" or so
The outer ribs are 1/8" firm balsa and the 2 center ribs are 1/8" plywood
The engine mount is from Cox International and it is screwed to a 1/8" ply firewall using #2 sheet metal screws,
The bladder is positioned over the CG. I used some scrap 2-56 control wire to hold the bladder in place. At the rear of the bladder are 2 knots, which I think helps the wire hook keep a grip on it.
I used 50 pound test Spiderline for leadouts and the leadout guides are lengths of plastic tube that I chamfered on both ends to hopefully keep the Spiderline from fraying.

I anticipate needing to move the engine forward to arrive at the proper CG.
I'm not able to read on the plans where the CG is supposed to be.
1.5" from the LE would be 25%....so I'll guess that 1.25" is a safe bet...?

FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY Img_0638

FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY Img_0639

FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY Img_0640

FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY Img_0641

getback Mon Sep 02, 2024 7:38 am

Looks stout , why did you not use screw inserts for the engine mount screws ? Never flew the Satan go the Combat Kittens well what's left of two they need some attention before air worthy.

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 02, 2024 12:51 pm

getback wrote:Looks stout , why did you not use screw inserts for the engine mount screws ? Never flew the Satan go the Combat Kittens well what's left of two they need some attention before air worthy.

Are you talking about those brass "corkscrew" type things with internal machine screw threads and woodscrew threads externally...or "blind nuts"?

If I'm mounting .15 and under engines to maple, or the plastic engine mounts to 1/8" thick plywood, I think a socket head sheet metal screw [SHSMS] is OK. Soak the screw holes with thin CA.

I have lost only 1 engine in flight doing it this way.
The engine ripped loose...but it ripped loose firewall and all from a RC model. The choice of hardware didn't matter..... Shocked

It made me very sad because it was a Cyclon .061.
That engine was never found by me.
That flying site is under 6 inches of asphalt, concrete and commercial buildings now.

When I first got into the hobby I used to walk past a box of Combat Kittens ...tempted but not tempted enough to switch from Goldberg kits to any other brand.

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 02, 2024 5:21 pm

akjgardner Mon Sep 02, 2024 5:49 pm

Looking good , you build fast quality looking airplanes

TD ABUSER Mon Sep 02, 2024 5:59 pm

akjgardner wrote:Looking good , you build fast quality looking airplanes

Thanks..!
In some ways building this small is more difficult.
I'm waiting on a delivery of fuel or else I'd like to see what this plane flies like.

getback Tue Sep 03, 2024 6:59 am

The 3 prong nuts for wood was the reference sorry bout that .. Well if you having good success with what your doing and sounds like it is , stick with it I guess i am so use to taking engines off and cleaning them the Stuntman and some the others w/thin mounts and balsa back up (cheeks) I have had to refill the holes a few times on them ..
Your Lil Satan looks good nice bright color too , As a youth my room was painted that color LOL Very Happy

TD ABUSER Tue Sep 03, 2024 3:56 pm

Not a "factory original" Lil Satan...but it's similar.
This one has a 22 inch span
weighs 6.66 ounces [yes it really does]
35 foot long .012" steel lines
5 x 3 Cox rubber prop
CG is set at somewhere between 20% to 25%.
Factory dimensions for the stabilator seem on the verge of being too small
Using the inner hole of a factory original Carl Goldberg bell crank and a plywood control horn with a top hole that is 3/4" above the top surface of the stabilator.
Some flyers might want more sensitivity, but this is a flyable control setting.
The model is so small it sometimes "disappears" for a second...so flying it with a camera bolted to a loosely fit helmet added a little bit to the confusion.
I think it would be easier to see if it was bright red.
The trim......5 degrees engine offset, 2 pennies on the wing tip and the "factory" amount of leadout rake the model has great line tension and doesn't wobble, or jerk, or do anything evil while giving it max control.
If anything, I want to try to more "sporty" hole of the control horn to tighten the loops up a little bit.

TD ABUSER Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:01 pm

After putting quite a few flights on this plane...I've come to the conclusion that IT'S A DOG.
I'll bet it's a good deal heavier than the original Goldberg model..so there's that.

I also think it's got the wrong airfoil. It's OK for flat out speed but it acts like a SPEED BRAKE when you try to get it to turn quick.

So....I'm going to try building a TD .049 combat plane that flies better.

The 1/2 A Combat planes we build for contests in the 1980s were foamies that had "real" airfoils.
I built Rich Lopez "Sly Sirs". They were 24 inch span, tapered..and weighed about 7 ozs.
With a good TD [22000 with a 5 x 3] they were competitive and great fun for sport flying too.
They were still too heavy to be the best they could be and so I think the best possible design for the Cox TD .049 is going to be like the modern day F2D "Russian" type.
Maybe 26 to 28 inch span and whatever the prop hub to elevator hinge line measurement that the Lil Satan has...?

Ken Cook Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:22 am

The stock Satan has too small of a wingspan and too thin of a airfoil. It never performed well but the decal was cool. The Combat Kitten was quite a improvement over the Satan. I fly a Mezjlik F2D style plane with the TD similar to what your mentioning. I personally feel the TD doesn't have enough power. I finally got some turning dialed into it but the speeds are down. A 5x3 is too much load and I've been using a APC 4.5x3.5. It seems to turn up better, I just wish I could get the same speeds from level flight through the maneuvers. I always wondered how Rich's Lil Matador would perform. It may have been a Flying Models article from way back, it was in regards to the intro of the Lil Matador. It gave detailed instructions on what to expect and how to break in your engine to achieve the best results in running high nitro. Of course then, TD piston cylinders were available and everything else was affordable.

getback Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:35 am

the Lil Matador sounds impressive Plans >> https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=14025 And a talk about the engine, prop , nitro used in testing . Its a shame that good looking model didn't perform as you wanted . pay for plans too https://www.ebay.com/itm/184147328032 Very Happy

TD ABUSER Wed Sep 04, 2024 8:25 am

Ken Cook wrote: The stock Satan has too small of a wingspan and too thin of a airfoil. It never performed well but the decal was cool. The Combat Kitten was quite a improvement over the Satan. I fly a Mezjlik F2D style plane with the TD similar to what your mentioning. I personally feel the TD doesn't have enough power. I finally got some turning dialed into it but the speeds are down. A 5x3 is too much load and I've been using a APC 4.5x3.5. It seems to turn up better, I just wish I could get the same speeds from level flight through the maneuvers. I always wondered how Rich's Lil Matador would perform. It may have been a Flying Models article from way back, it was in regards to the intro of the Lil Matador. It gave detailed instructions on what to expect and how to break in your engine to achieve the best results in running high nitro. Of course then, TD piston cylinders were available and everything else was affordable.

I'll give the Lil Matador a look...!
How much does your "mini F2D" with the TD weigh...?

I really noticed the Cox 5 x 3 rubber prop sagging in the turns yesterday. This was on 25% nitro, 25% oil fuel. This was also with a P/L combo that had good compression. Back in the day I never noticed such an RPM drop.
What I forgot to do was to manually de-pitch the rubber blades a little.

After several pretty decent 3 minute engine runs [with the engine landing cool enough to touch] the engine locked up on the final flight.
The piston had seized at the top of the exhaust port.
I needed a wood dowel to get it unstuck.
I found that a sliver from the edge of the exhaust port had broken off probably when the piston's top edge swiped it on the way up.
Too bad because this was otherwise my best P/L combo.

TD ABUSER Wed Sep 04, 2024 8:31 am

getback wrote:the Lil Matador sounds impressive Plans >> https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=14025 And a talk about the engine, prop , nitro used in testing . Its a shame that good looking model didn't perform as you wanted . pay for plans too https://www.ebay.com/itm/184147328032

Thanks for the link...!
His Matador came out before I got into the hobby..so I've never laid eyes on one.
My prized possession...a Zalp .15 F2D engine I bought from Rich Von Lopez.....[but mostly used it for a 150 mph RC Speed Plane project].

getback Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:53 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
getback wrote:the Lil Matador sounds impressive Plans >> https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=14025 And a talk about the engine, prop , nitro used in testing . Its a shame that good looking model didn't perform as you wanted . pay for plans too https://www.ebay.com/itm/184147328032

Thanks for the link...!
His Matador came out before I got into the hobby..so I've never laid eyes on one.
My prized possession...a Zalp .15 F2D engine I bought from Rich Von Lopez.....[but mostly used it for a 150 mph RC Speed Plane project].

Your welcome , thats cool you have a engine from the designer !! Thats FAST !! Like to see you maybe scale one down to 1/2A size ?! It does have alot of airfoil thickness to it as Ken said

Ken Cook Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:36 pm

From memory, the article gave detailed things to look for in setting the engine up. First it said if it's sagging, don't push it hard because the piston will swell and gall up the cylinder. It said to run the engine on a test stand and clip a 5x3 down until you achieved a certain rpm number. Run the engine hard for a minute or two and shut it down. Look at the piston, especially for vertical scratching. If you weren't achieving the designated rpm's, It was important to take the engine apart and lap the piston/cylinder manually or use a specific abrasive while running. It said to dab the abrasive onto your fingertip and touch it to the venturi while running full song. Essentially, the article explained that high nitro fuels will generate more heat and will cause the piston to swell opposed to lower nitro fuels.

rsv1cox Wed Sep 04, 2024 6:39 pm

Great picture TD-A...Did you actually paint the yellow with a brush and hand stripe it in black?

FEELING A "LIL SATANISH" LATELY Img_0610

TD ABUSER Thu Sep 05, 2024 12:17 am

rsv1cox wrote:Great picture TD-A...Did you actually paint the yellow with a brush and hand stripe it in black?

What you see is Sig Butyrate Dope brushed with a Harbor Freight "chip brush" and the best I could do for thinner is lacquer thinner..which gives you 1 second working time before the paint is almost dry.
What a pain..!
The black stripe is a Magic Marker and it wont run if you air brush a coat of clear butyrate over it...but it will dissolve if you try to brush butyrate over it.

TD ABUSER Thu Sep 05, 2024 12:33 am

Ken Cook wrote: From memory, the article gave detailed things to look for in setting the engine up. First it said if it's sagging, don't push it hard because the piston will swell and gall up the cylinder. It said to run the engine on a test stand and clip a 5x3 down until you achieved a certain rpm number. Run the engine hard for a minute or two and shut it down. Look at the piston, especially for vertical scratching. If you weren't achieving the designated rpm's, It was important to take the engine apart and lap the piston/cylinder manually or use a specific abrasive while running. It said to dab the abrasive onto your fingertip and touch it to the venturi while running full song. Essentially, the article explained that high nitro fuels will generate more heat and will cause the piston to swell opposed to lower nitro fuels.

The first few flights of the day had black residue in the exhaust but it was running nice and cool and clean after that.
With what I see NIB engines going for....I'll just have to be more careful about doing the break in.
I looked at Norvel .061 Big Migs with asking prices of $120 to $170 last night.
Someone was selling a Norvel .049 for $70 but that didn't include the upper half of the engine.... Laughing

I'd rather just spend a little more and get a Fora or Cyclon.

Working with the Cox TD [and it's limitations] is part of the fun though.
I would pay a huge premium for a tapered bore P/L set.
Back in the 1980s I had lousy luck with replacement P/L sets. I felt like they were sets that weren't good enough to go into new engines.

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