Re: Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine

StevenStanleyBayes Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:41 pm

balogh wrote:I do not want to start a diesel vs gas car engine dispute here, just share my experience... I feel that the general statement that diesel model engines and diesel car engines are useless is a bit of an overstatement, so I take the liberty of having different experience than Steven's statements on model and car diesel engines.

1. Back in the time when I was 12 years young (52 years ago) I met my first 1.5ccm "diesel" model engine, a Hungarian Moki I guess, that I could easily start by hand-flipping, fed with a 33%/33%/34% blend of pharmaceutical ether, petroleum and castor.( I did not even know that amyl-nitrate or similar combustion boosters were available for diesel model engines) I used a hand-carved propeller I made from a pine wood block (!!! and praise my fortune that it did not split and fly splinters into my naked eyes )

I think it partly boils down to the proper fly-wheel momentum of whatever is mounted on the shaft of a diesel. And having a routine in handling the counter-piston of the diesel is also essential.. Diesels need more fly-wheel momentum for hand flip starts than glow engines, but I think this is a no brainer.

2. The antique plane flier old-farts of my age in a club where I am a silent member all run their planes powered by 50-60 years old diesel model engines with no complaint of difficulty in starting them.

3. I have been driving diesel cars since around 2001, and cannot repeat enough how much more torquey and efficient I find them in comparison to gas engines of equal size. ( My 2 litre diesel, some 190HP rated output, consumed an average 6l/100km when I drove home last time from Holland to Budapest over a 1400 km distance that I covered in 12 hours with occasional pee-stops for my wife..in Germany I seldom drove below 180km/h as there is no speed limit there on most highways, the rest of the trip was covered near 140km/h..so my priority was time and not economy, and I managed that at 6l/100km..a gas/petrol engine would have consumed at least 20% more than that, I assume....)

4. Regarding diesel car engine longevity, if you sat in a well used cab (VW, Skoda, Benz, Audi, Opel=GM etc.) in Europe you would quite often see the ODO of those diesel cabs are passing 5-600k km or even reaching 1million km, on the same engine!!! They may be knocking and rattling but their state of the art dual-mass fly-wheel+clutch units are dampening the diesel detonation.

I also prefer glow engines to diesel model engines though: first off because I am a stock COX glow engine fan, and second, the diesel fuel for model engines is even harder to obtain nowadays than nitro for glow fuel.. Them not needing power to electrify the glow plug would also be a major advantage, though...

In regards to the car part, I have, clearly, said : When a car diesel engine is THE SAME as a car gasoline engine, THE CAR GASOLINE ENGINE WILL OUTPERFORM THE DIESEL IN TORQUE, HORSE POWER AND POWER IN GENERAL.

In terms or reliability, even the American garbage cars can make 600000km or, even, a million. However, the most reliable engine is neither gasoline nor diesel. This is the Propane Butane engine. They last forever, because, of the low temperature of burning and, most importantly, the huge Octane number, around 120.

In regards to RC engines, no, they do not start, certainly, not with your mixture. You must have added nuclear power to them to start.

A way to mitigate the problem is to have a middle tankette, filled with pure Ether or strong pure Ether and pure Kerosene and other additives for RC engine startup ). The engine may start on pure Ether, yet, without too much power. Then, after a while, the valve between the tankette and the main tank can be, GRADUALLY, loosen up to introduce the main mixture, very gradually. Before the engine is stopped, the valve can be closed and the engine can be waited to empty the tankette for the next startup. Even then, diesels may not start. Also, the engine must be heated up with a blow torch before all these.

So, sorry. No diesel. But I like enthusiasm as I have said and wish you a good luck. I, also, do so to the supporters of the Wankel engine.

balogh Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:45 pm

Just gave it a try, but follow Oldenginerod and sign off..

StevenStanleyBayes Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:50 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:
StevenStanleyBayes wrote: So, sorry to disappoint you,

Oh, my only disappointment is that you are unwilling to listen to any advice, even that which is intended to help you. If you believe that I have merely fabricated my experience with diesels, then feel free to live with your illusions.
Signing off!!

Your experience is not true as such is impossible.

StevenStanleyBayes Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:51 pm

balogh wrote:Just gave it a try, but follow Oldenginerod and sign off..

You cannot give try to something, which, is a total lie and ignorance.

balogh Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:53 pm

StevenStanleyBayes Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:54 pm

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
Oldenginerod wrote:
StevenStanleyBayes wrote: So, sorry to disappoint you,

Oh, my only disappointment is that you are unwilling to listen to any advice, even that which is intended to help you. If you believe that I have merely fabricated my experience with diesels, then feel free to live with your illusions.
Signing off!!

Your experience is not true as such is impossible.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY ADVICE. DIESELS, JUST, DO NOT WORK, REGARDLESS WHAT ANYONE LIES. THIS IS WHY THERE ARE COMPANIES WHICH MAKE TONS OF MONEY SELLLING FUEL, WHICH, IS ALSO, USELESS, BUT, NOT AS USELESS AS THE HOMEMADE.

And this is why there are glow plug engines which sell in billions as opposed to diesel garbage, which, no one gets.

StevenStanleyBayes Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:56 pm

balogh wrote:

Well, keep trying, then. Enjoy your diesels and your myths and keep believing in them and in extraterrestrial diesel RC engines from flying saucers. They may start once in a million light years.

robot797 Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:08 am

diesels do work
and the 1:1:1 mixture is the best mix to start
and dude please stop ranting in my thread

**Admin** Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:11 am

Let’s take it easy guys. Disagree with each other all you want but remember to be respectful.

Coxfledgling Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:55 am

This boat project I am toying with, thinking about, and will no doubt be "throwing ideas about to get it to work, on the bench first " will either be merco 61glow powered, may be "petrolised" using that fancy glow plug or even with a miniature spark plug, or a suitable strimmer type motor that would have to be marinised, so lots of choices to be made.

All my diesels and I have a few, will be going into c/line or RC aeroplanes where they perform well with good fuel "economy".
It's so great to go to the field with a model, tin of fuel and a rag knowing I'm Gunna be flying.

I remember the Cox days, fledgling in hand, fuel and rag in pocket and the battery and it's lead in a bag. You get to the field and set up, engine ready and primed, clip the lead on, and watch that lovely glow seen in the exhaust pots, only to watch it fade and then dia, arrrrrrrgh !

But enough of that, a small electricity Genny...

I imaging that special rudder "fans out" for reverse, which is Gunna be needed on the perkasa, a long and quiet heavy fastish boat.

Centrifugal clutch, or electromagnetic ?

So ic engine starts in a "no load" condition, apply some throttle, system starts to generate...powering drive motor for the boat.

A mechanical sliding contacts polarity changing switch for forward, neutral, reverse is not new to me but this boat may have twin screw drive. The full size has 3 props I think.

May be mech co SW controls relays.....

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:51 pm

robot797 wrote:diesels do work
and the 1:1:1 mixture is the best mix to start
and dude please stop ranting in my thread

This is not your threat. Diesels do not start. The best mixture is the one sold by the company, not available anywhere.

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:56 pm

Admin wrote:Let’s take it easy guys. Disagree with each other all you want but remember to be respectful.

Respect given to all. I realise they want to help, although, in vain as I have tried everything they say, however, only with what is available. I have, also, watched hundreds of videos on the topic. I am happy to take advice, but, only when this is real advice and not advertising of questionable abilities and stubbornly ranting what they want to be the case and not what the case is in reality.

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:01 pm

Coxfledgling wrote:This boat project I am toying with, thinking about, and will no doubt be "throwing ideas about to get it to work, on the bench first " will either be merco 61glow powered, may be "petrolised" using that fancy glow plug or even with a miniature spark plug, or a suitable strimmer type motor that would have to be marinised, so lots of choices to be made.

All my diesels and I have a few, will be going into c/line or RC aeroplanes where they perform well with good fuel "economy".
It's so great to go to the field with a model, tin of fuel and a rag knowing I'm Gunna be flying.

I remember the Cox days, fledgling in hand, fuel and rag in pocket and the battery and it's lead in a bag. You get to the field and set up, engine ready and primed, clip the lead on, and watch that lovely glow seen in the exhaust pots, only to watch it fade and then dia, arrrrrrrgh !

But enough of that, a small electricity Genny...

I imaging that special rudder "fans out" for reverse, which is Gunna be needed on the perkasa, a long and quiet heavy fastish boat.

Centrifugal clutch, or electromagnetic ?

So ic engine starts in a "no load" condition, apply some throttle, system starts to generate...powering drive motor for the boat.

A mechanical sliding contacts polarity changing switch for forward, neutral, reverse is not new to me but this boat may have twin screw drive. The full size has 3 props I think.

May be mech co SW controls relays.....

An electromagnetic clutch is an excellent idea. Did not know they are available in the RC field. I wonder what their efficiency is. Can you post some information of which one you have chosen?

This is what I call a real, helpful advice.

roddie Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:38 pm

wow........ Shocked

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:55 pm

I forgot to mention I have tried everything written here, however, only with what I have available and I do not have much. I have, also, watched hundreds of videos. I think, in most cases, the videos will show a successful start of a diesel engine, but, they do not show the unsuccessful attempts, which, lead to the successful one. They seem to had prepared and started the engine, then, after working for a long while, they stopped the engine and immediately restarted again in order to shoot the video. Even then, they do not have immediate success, always and need a number of attempts.

Now, here is what I have :

1. Castor oil from Cox. This is the only, top quality component I have.

2. Off the shelf Kerosene made for lights for campers and therefore this Kerosene is of immensely poor quality. No one needs good quality Kerosene to put in a lamp or to be used as fire starter. Obviously, the companies would make the most inexpensive liquid, which, may start to burn in a lamp. Not much of Kerosene.

3. Diesel Tractor Starter, which, again, because made for big, heavy diesel engines is of very poor quality, although, the manufacturer claims to have a certain percentage of Ether. Again, no one needs a good quality, pure Ether to start a glow plug tractor, which, is supposed to start without the starter anyway. Helps the tractor, but, not much, yet, the tractor does not need much help. Obviously, the manufacturer would use the most inexpensive mixture, which, may, very slightly, help the tractor, just to be able to sell.

4. Company made fuel is made in the USA and is not available here. I went to an RC shop and asked for such and I was nearly beaten out, figuratively speaking. The sells person answered rudely as if asked for free Gold. They had glow plug fuel as far as I remember, but, not diesel. This is, probably, because no one here uses diesel, they use glow plugs only. This is, also, true in most countries in the world. I read somewhere only one country in the world " qualifies " for the title of an " RC Diesel Country " : Britannia. No one else uses diesels. Note : Britannia sells special, company made diesel fuel, which, is said to be of superb quality.

5. Various fans and propellers : some purchased from Cox, some from elsewhere, some, I have made, others I have modified, some were not modified at all, etcetera.

6. The engine does not start, even, without the dynamo, yet, the dynamo is inexpensive, from China and puts high mechanical resistance, even when not loaded.

7. I do not have the conditions to mount the dynamo's shaft, directly on the engine shaft as others do. Thus, I use a large O ring as a belt. The belt, obviously, pulls the dynamo's shaft towards the engine's shaft and, thus, increases the mechanical load. Alternator is a better option, where available. The more phases, the better. Alternators, probably, put lower mechanical resistance when unloaded.

8. I have tried everything available : spring, electrical screwdrivers and a drill, which, does not have different speeds, but, the speed can be controlled, to some extend, by the trigger. The problem is the drill as all other, have very low, maximum RPM.

9. I tried a " pseudo clutch " : I oiled the belt. Thus, initially, the well oiled belt would slip. Once the engine starts up, the oil will be spread out and pushed way and the belt will grab. This happens gradually.

10. Anyway, as I have mentioned, the engine does not start, even, without the dynamo or anything else connected. Just the engine as is. Many propellers tried as mentioned.

The engine does not start, even, with pure tractor starter, without Kerosene. The engine is supposed to start and run quietly at low torque. Managed to start once out of thousands of attempts.

Again, here is what I think is an option, which may not be as bad :

1. The tiny, Cox tank can be used as a primary tank, which, supplies the engine.

2. A big tank is connected to the Cox tank through a manual valve. The manual valve is, initially, closed. The Cox tank is, initially, filled with pure Ether and all kind of magic nitros available. May not be fully filled, although, the fuller the better. The lowest amount of Castor oil, allowed by the engine manufacturer must be mixed with these.

3. The big tank is, initially, filled with the mixture with the lowest, possible, amount of Castor oil, allowed by the manufacturer of the engine and the manufacturer of the fuel.

4. The engine is started with the manual valve fully closed. Hopefully, the engine would start and sustain on pure Ether ( and nitros and Castor ). In case of a problem, tiny amounts of fuel can be added to the pure Ether ( and nitros and Castor ), just, for the engine to start and sustain. The engine MUST be started with specialised, electrical starter, sold by companies, especially to be used for RC diesel startup. The engine MUST be, initially, heated with a blow torch or heat gun. Do not melt the Aluminium.

5. Assuming the engine has started and sustained the run, wait until the engine warms up, maybe, 5 or 10 minutes. Then, with pure Ether ( and nitros and Castor ) still in the primary tank, open the manual valve, very, very, very slightly. The engine is supposed to increase torque and RPM, very slightly. Wait for a few seconds for the engine to stablise. The, open the valve very, very, very slightly more. Then wait for the engine to stabilise, then repeat until the valve is fully open.

6. Wait for the engine to stabilise and to run for a few minutes. Then, open the secondary tank and put the maximum amount of Castor oil allowed by the engine and fuel manufacturers. This is necessary for reliability, to protect the engine.

7. During all these, the engine " gas pedal " must be used to adjust the RPM.

8. After all of these, engage the mechanical ( or electromagnetic ) clutch or increase the RPM in order to engage the centrifugal clutch. The clutch, similar to a car, must engage very, very, very GRADUALLY.

Then, the engine must work sustainably, forever. Just keep adding fuel with the maximum amount of Castor oil allowed by the engine manufacturer and manufacturer of fuel ( whichever is lower ). 1L or more secondary tank is welcome.

The goal is to achieve 5W or more, the old USB power.

The bigger the engine, the better.

Glow plug, preferable.

Any comments?

robot797 Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:05 am

StevenStanleyBayes wrote:
robot797 wrote:diesels do work
and the 1:1:1 mixture is the best mix to start
and dude please stop ranting in my thread

This is not your threat. Diesels do not start. The best mixture is the one sold by the company, not available anywhere.

they do start you just fail at starting tham
and you are right
thought this was my thread XD

robot797 Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:08 am

the fuel I made when starting with disels was made of garbage stuff
and the engines ran and run great

medical castor oil (wrong lubrication)
lamp oil (liquid parafin)
and pure ether (only good part)
mixed is 1:1:1
not a problem

I do want to use comercial fuel once but I cant get that here

Surfer_kris Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:55 pm

Diesel engines are great and much easier to start than glow engines. Just prime and flip, no battery needed. Smile

I had a PeeWee that was very sensitive on the needle setting and would never run concistenly for a full tank. I swapped to a diesel head and it would run each tank to the last drop. No spring starter needed, just prime correctly on the piston and you get first flip starts every time. Smile

The power is better at lower rpms too, compared to glow fuel, here is the Pee Wee happily swinging a 6x3 prop:

davidll1984 Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:26 am

I have try the cox diesel head on m'y norvel .061 it work But I haven't really tested more than necessary

HalfaDave Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:59 pm

Hi All,

This was all done in the 1960s. The Cox engine was started with a string on the flywheel. (got the T-Shirt )
Several articles in Popular Mechanics/Model magazines at the time.
Primitive R/C control, it was just a skateboard that moved. (Belts and bearings hurt)
All done with Hobby Shop/before Radio Shack stuff back then.
Oh, those good old days...
Dad built a glider/trainer with an ED 1.5cc diesel. We had fun. Under powered, with early escapement R/C control.
Beat chasing FF. On a good day, we got it back close to the field.
I was 10yrs old and could flip start that diesel.
Everything was great, until,
We put our clothes in the washing machine. Stunk out the house.
Moved on to alc/castor/glow.
I love that ether smell, but alc/casor/nitro is much easier. Rancid castor oil smells sweet to me.

I like the idea of a backpack/Cox engine/phone re-charger. But,
Leroy Cox would have made them all diesel, if it was better.

With Respect to other idiots,
Dave

Surfer_kris Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:20 pm

In Europe it actually took quite some time for glow engines to gain popularity. Everyone knew how to operate diesel engines but the glow engines were tricky to start and one needed a battery to be connected while flipping the prop etc. Nitro was also expensive and used sparingly... Wink

roddie Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:57 pm

Several years ago CEF member Ian1954 (Ian) gifted me a package that contained a Diesel conversion for a Cox Reed-valve .049. The head/contra-piston, Teflon disc (w/spares) a HD/performance replacement crankshaft and some Tygon (guessing) transparent-yellow fuel line. All as of yet untouched by me.

make your own reeds - Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 30 Davis_10

I bought a qt. of kerosene.. and I'd expect it to be of quality.. but I don't have experience there either ether either ether Smile

It's the "Coleman" brand. The "Coleman Fuel" for camping stoves is known as "white gas". It's clean enough for cooking.. and I would suppose that Coleman Kerosene is of somewhat pure refinement.

make your own reeds - Micro 12VDC Generator with a Cox .049 Sure Start Diesel Engine - Page 30 Kero-c10

I like the idea of the compression-ignition engine... I just don't have any experience yet, partially because glow engines immediately became popular here in the United States, shortly after Ray Arden introduced the glow-plug. Up until then; the spark-ignition model engines were in use. The glow-plug eliminated the need for ignition points, a condenser and an on board ignition battery. You can imagine the weight savings to a model aircraft.

The appeal of the 1/2A diesel for "me".. is that I could build a 1/12 scale balsa kit of say; a Fokker DR-1. The full-size DR-1 had an 8 foot diameter 2-blade wooden propellor. A typical Cox .049 reed-valve diesel conversion would swing a Jzinger-brand 8"d X 3"p woody effortlessly.. and with a much more scale exhaust-note. The currently available nano-RC gear makes that even more of a reality.

I have a muffler design that could easily divert waste-oil down to a sump-tube stuffed with a cotton ball. Extract it with tweezers and re-pack with a clean cotton ball between flights.

Waste-oil-handling should be considered part of the equation where excessive exposure would degrade finish-quality.. and possibly soak-through any wooden joints nearby.. or at least incorporated into the creation's venting system.

Sorry to drift the thread... This one's like a "think tank".

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:47 pm

robot797 wrote:the fuel I made when starting with disels was made of garbage stuff
and the engines ran and run great

medical castor oil (wrong lubrication)
lamp oil (liquid parafin)
and pure ether (only good part)
mixed is 1:1:1
not a problem

I do want to use comercial fuel once but I cant get that here

I am the one who started this thread.

This is NOT lamp oil. This is Kerosene, which, the shops sell for camping, which means, a lousy grade.

I have NEVER used medical Castor oil, only, Cox original.

No, I do not do anything wrong. Diesel engines are wrong. Must be glow plug.

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:50 pm

Surfer_kris wrote:Diesel engines are great and much easier to start than glow engines. Just prime and flip, no battery needed.

I had a PeeWee that was very sensitive on the needle setting and would never run concistenly for a full tank. I swapped to a diesel head and it would run each tank to the last drop. No spring starter needed, just prime correctly on the piston and you get first flip starts every time.

The power is better at lower rpms too, compared to glow fuel, here is the Pee Wee happily swinging a 6x3 prop:

No, glow engines start for sure. The battery is not a problem. Li ion OK. DC to DC converter OK. The glow plug must be warm.

In regards to the situation I was in, no, nothing helps. Priming too. Bad Ether ( tractor starter ) and bad Kerosene. No high speed electric starter.

StevenStanleyBayes Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:55 pm

HalfaDave wrote:Hi All,

This was all done in the 1960s. The Cox engine was started with a string on the flywheel. (got the T-Shirt )
Several articles in Popular Mechanics/Model magazines at the time.
Primitive R/C control, it was just a skateboard that moved. (Belts and bearings hurt)
All done with Hobby Shop/before Radio Shack stuff back then.
Oh, those good old days...
Dad built a glider/trainer with an ED 1.5cc diesel. We had fun. Under powered, with early escapement R/C control.
Beat chasing FF. On a good day, we got it back close to the field.
I was 10yrs old and could flip start that diesel.
Everything was great, until,
We put our clothes in the washing machine. Stunk out the house.
Moved on to alc/castor/glow.
I love that ether smell, but alc/casor/nitro is much easier. Rancid castor oil smells sweet to me.

I like the idea of a backpack/Cox engine/phone re-charger. But,
Leroy Cox would have made them all diesel, if it was better.

With Respect to other idiots,
Dave

One thing I was afraid to do, but, should have done was to heat up the engine with a heat gun or a blow torch. I was afraid not to burn the Teflon valve membrane.

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