Re: More Fun with Foxes... .29 Stunt & .35 Combat !

Ken Cook Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:41 am

Hello Kim, talking to a club member the other night I was telling him about your Blackhead, He informs me that mine, is the following year as it has no black color on the head and that the first year of the Blackhead was "57" which is yours. I can't confirm this and I'm just going by what he told me. Very cool nonetheless. The instructions he said are very vague. Two prop choices are listed and the 9x6 is one of them and for top speed a 9x7. I know you mentioned the use of the APC. I think the wider blade APC won't quite show the same rpm's as a Master Airscrew. This is just my thinking and only a true test would decide.

If you do go the route of the APC just keep the edges sanded clean removing the flash. Last week I witnessed a good cut. I sand all the props and use a glove with duct tape on the fingertips. I can't tell you how many times I see an engine that is being problematic and the person starting it gets into a flipping rhythmn. Finally, the engine decides to start and he's still in the flipping mode and puts his hand right into the running engine. Ken

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:10 am

shawn cook wrote: Hello Kim, talking to a club member the other night I was telling him about your Blackhead, He informs me that mine, is the following year as it has no black color on the head and that the first year of the Blackhead was "57" which is yours. I can't confirm this and I'm just going by what he told me. Very cool nonetheless. The instructions he said are very vague. Two prop choices are listed and the 9x6 is one of them and for top speed a 9x7. I know you mentioned the use of the APC. I think the wider blade APC won't quite show the same rpm's as a Master Airscrew. This is just my thinking and only a true test would decide.

If you do go the route of the APC just keep the edges sanded clean removing the flash. Last week I witnessed a good cut. I sand all the props and use a glove with duct tape on the fingertips. I can't tell you how many times I see an engine that is being problematic and the person starting it gets into a flipping rhythmn. Finally, the engine decides to start and he's still in the flipping mode and puts his hand right into the running engine. Ken

Hey Ken, Thanks!

As they say, "I've bought that "T" shirt" myself! I've never actually made contact with the prop of a suddenly-started engine, but have surely reached for the sucker after some extended/robotic cranking !!!! I'll sand the APC smooth, and try it for the heck of it...also have a new M.A. 9-6 and new Fox plugs...as much a chance to spend some bucks at my local hobby shop as anything.

Speaking of which, a great guy runs the place, and he has an assortment of vintage engines on display. I keep harassing him to let me set up my test stand out on the sidewalk and crank a couple of them up, but he just smiles at me like I'm a special child and shakes his head! I don't know if it's damage to his engines or a disturbance call to the police that worries him !!!!

I'm printing out some of these comments to give my Uncle some reading material between our flying sessions. He really likes the idea that some of his engines might be late 50's/early 60's types, and are still running. I'm gonna make a strong effort talk him out of re-installing the Blackhead-Combat in the little Stearman his brother Bill built...I'm pretty sure the thing will shed it's wings if we do so !!!

Now...with coffee mug in hand....it's out to the Skunk Works !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:28 am

Ivanhoe wrote:Here's what you need, Kim, to add that authentic touch!

Yo ! Thanks ! Think I'm gonna use it to make a sticker for my tool box! Also...this is cooking on Ebay over in your neck of the woods:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/model-airplane-engine-Fox-35-stunt-from-1950-/160826761638?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item257205a1a6

And I just bought this thing. It may be a gamble, but figure I won't get hurt too bad if it's junk...AND maybe it'll be a runner!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FOX-35-STUNT-C-L-MODEL-AIRPLANE-ENGINE-U-S-A-MID-1960s-NR-/110898900164?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d216ecc4

Ivanhoe Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:51 am

You may have a decent engine there, Kim, I've bought a lot of stuff from that seller, and it's all been good. He knows what he's talking about on engines, and once when I bought an OK Cub from him on "Buy it now" he threw in another Wen-Mac which had ended without selling! (Both of them ran too!)

I'd seen the Fox you mention, with 3 people bidding it's likely going too high for me.

Glad you liked the logo!

Wilf

Ken Cook Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:02 am

The Fox in the link, and not the one Kim purchased is a whole different animal. That is the sandcast Fox.35. some of them can be strong runners and somewhat rare. These were very tempermental. The engine has 4 bolt head and not the 6 like the current Fox. The heads were very prone to distortion and coming loose constantly. This usually resulted in a blown head gasket. If your looking for a runner for a plane I wouldn't suggest this version. I could be wrong about this as I may be confusing it with the steelfin .15 but the sandcast .35 may have a two bolt backplate as well. Ken

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:08 am

shawn cook wrote: The Fox in the link, and not the one Kim purchased is a whole different animal. That is the sandcast Fox.35. some of them can be strong runners and somewhat rare. These were very tempermental. The engine has 4 bolt head and not the 6 like the current Fox. The heads were very prone to distortion and coming loose constantly. This usually resulted in a blown head gasket. If your looking for a runner for a plane I wouldn't suggest this version. I could be wrong about this as I may be confusing it with the steelfin .15 but the sandcast .35 may have a two bolt backplate as well. Ken

Oh...thanks for the tip! I didn't read the descriptor, just posted it in case someone over there might want to check it out. We'll see if I've got myself a runner or a paperweight!

Ivanhoe Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:09 am

Another engine from the same generation, Torpedo .19

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Torped10

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Torped11

I bought this engine, missing it's prop driver, nut, washer and NVA on EBay for $4.50.
When I disassembled it I found it was brand new, and had never been run. I still have to finish running it in, but it runs very well indeed (even on that Fox NVA!)

I'd like to know it's actual age, if anyone has any idea.

Wilf

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:19 am

My first listing for it in Mr. Dannel's book puts it at 1951: "New die castings with '19' cast below exhaust in a serif style. 4 bolt back cover. '19' stamped on front of silver head. Serial number stamped on edge of left lug. Has venturi insert. Drive washed has 'D' hole. Approx s/n range 00100 to 22000."

Ken Cook Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:22 am

I don't have any experience with the early Torpedo series K&B's. Although I'm wondering when did the green heads appear on the scene. I'm shocked that this particular one isn't a green head. I would imagine the later part of the 50's for the greenhead. A very nice example you have there. Ken

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:27 am

For the .19 at least, the first mention of the Green Head is February, 1953.

Ivanhoe Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:30 am

Kim wrote:My first listing for it in Mr. Dannel's book puts it at 1951: "New die castings with '19' cast below exhaust in a serif style. 4 bolt back cover. '19' stamped on front of silver head. Serial number stamped on edge of left lug. Has venturi insert. Drive washed has 'D' hole. Approx s/n range 00100 to 22000."

Hey, thanks, Kim, I'd no idea it was THAT old! I wonder where it had been all that time without being run? It was completely free when I got it, I suppose because it had never had fuel in it to gum things up.

ahrma_581 Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:06 pm

Kim wrote: Approx s/n range 00100 to 22000."

Wonder if they ratcheted up the s/n by year, or does that represent a total production run (for just one design/model) of 22K engines????

While I'm wondering, has any EP motor been produced with s/n's or are they just 'consumer disposables'?

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:34 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
Kim wrote:My first listing for it in Mr. Dannel's book puts it at 1951: "New die castings with '19' cast below exhaust in a serif style. 4 bolt back cover. '19' stamped on front of silver head. Serial number stamped on edge of left lug. Has venturi insert. Drive washed has 'D' hole. Approx s/n range 00100 to 22000."

Hey, thanks, Kim, I'd no idea it was THAT old! I wonder where it had been all that time without being run? It was completely free when I got it, I suppose because it had never had fuel in it to gum things up.

Just shows that there are probably many others; tucked away in clothes drawers and junk boxes...waiting for someone who appreciates them !

Ivanhoe Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Kim wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Kim wrote:My first listing for it in Mr. Dannel's book puts it at 1951: "New die castings with '19' cast below exhaust in a serif style. 4 bolt back cover. '19' stamped on front of silver head. Serial number stamped on edge of left lug. Has venturi insert. Drive washed has 'D' hole. Approx s/n range 00100 to 22000."

Hey, thanks, Kim, I'd no idea it was THAT old! I wonder where it had been all that time without being run? It was completely free when I got it, I suppose because it had never had fuel in it to gum things up.

Just shows that there are probably many others; tucked away in clothes drawers and junk boxes...waiting for someone who appreciates them !

There must be many engines of all types lying around, when you think how many millions of model engines were produced by all manufacturers world-wide in the period say, 1950 - 1980, they can't possibly ALL be in collectors hordes, I can't imagine many were actually destroyed, and when you realise that there are comparatively few people who fly old engines, where are the rest? And more importantly, how do we find them? lol!

Kim Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:34 pm

I figure that you just have to aggressively get the word out. My Uncle Wayne lives way out in the Boondocks, and yet people, directed by "a-friend-of-a-friend" types, have showed up at his door with BOXES of old engines, telling him that they heard he flew model planes, and asking apologetically if they'd be worth $5 !!!

I've scored a few surprises, but Wayne gets them whole-sale !!!

Also, I think there are a lot of "Someday" collections that guys just accumulate, but never get going, and I think these are the source of several of Wayne's acquisitions.

Hmmm...maybe a billboard out on the interstate...

Ivanhoe Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Kim wrote:I figure that you just have to aggressively get the word out. My Uncle Wayne lives way out in the Boondocks, and yet people, directed by "a-friend-of-a-friend" types, have showed up at his door with BOXES of old engines, telling him that they heard he flew model planes, and asking apologetically if they'd be worth $5 !!!

I've scored a few surprises, but Wayne gets them whole-sale !!!

Also, I think there are a lot of "Someday" collections that guys just accumulate, but never get going, and I think these are the source of several of Wayne's acquisitions.

Hmmm...maybe a billboard out on the interstate...

Yes, great big letters "Got Any Old Model Engines? Sell Them To Me, I'll Go As Much As $10 If They Are REALLY Rare!!!"

lol!

Big Al Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:56 am

Well this thread made me dig out some of my old engines. Saw something that I had never noticed before.
I purchased two Fox 35’s only a month or so apart from a Hobby Shop in Wichita KS in 1952. The engines were identical but the boxes show two different names.
One is ‘Fox Manufacturing Co., Inc’ and the other is ‘Arnold & Fox Eng. Co.’ Both addresses are the same, ‘7401 Varna Ave., North Hollywood’
Thought it may be of interest or maybe a data point on dating the Fox name change.
Al
test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Fox-3513

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Fox-3513

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Fox-3514

Ken Cook Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:01 am

Very neat Al, Dale Arnold was Duke's machinist in the late 40's. He would make cranks and cylinders while Duke was making castings and doing the assembling and final finishing. They did become partners although eventually had a falling out. I believe the partnership only went a few years, maybe 3 total. The story has it that the money wasn't being distributed equally and fairly and Duke recognized this almost immediately and in a last ditch effort Duke decided to purchase some machinery. Duke bought Dale out of partnership and kept the engine line going solo with the Fox.35. One other thing to recognize here is the address on the box. This was prior to the move to Fort Smith Arkansas were Fox is located today. Ken

Kim Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:26 am

[quote="Big Al"]Well this thread made me dig out some of my old engines. Saw something that I had never noticed before.
I purchased two Fox 35’s only a month or so apart from a Hobby Shop in Wichita KS in 1952. The engines were identical but the boxes show two different names.
One is ‘Fox Manufacturing Co., Inc’ and the other is ‘Arnold & Fox Eng. Co.’ Both addresses are the same, ‘7401 Varna Ave., North Hollywood’
Thought it may be of interest or maybe a data point on dating the Fox name change.
Al

Cool...tons of history with each brand of engine. Wonder if there's been a book compiled of Fox History, with background info like Ken mentioned?

andrew Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:20 am

Big Al wrote:
I purchased two Fox 35’s only a month or so apart from a Hobby Shop in Wichita KS in 1952. The engines were identical but the boxes show two different names.
One is ‘Fox Manufacturing Co., Inc’ and the other is ‘Arnold & Fox Eng. Co.’ Both addresses are the same, ‘7401 Varna Ave., North Hollywood’
Thought it may be of interest or maybe a data point on dating the Fox name change.
Al

Ditto on Kim's comment about history of engines. If a question came up about an engine, I would bet someone on this board would have an answer and George (gcb) would have one in his collection.

Al, my compliments on your memory. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast, much less what happened 60 years ago. That was an interesting piece of information you and Shawn provided.

Here's a link to Duke Fox's autobiography: https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/Fox-Duke.pdf

andrew

Big Al Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:51 pm

[[/quote]
Al, my compliments on your memory. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast, much less what happened 60 years ago. That was an interesting piece of information you and Shawn provided.
andrew
[/quote]
Thanks for the compliment, but now that I think about it, it MAY have been ’53. Was either ’52 or ’53. My memory actually isn’t what it used to be. Embarassed

Al

gcb Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:39 pm

andrew wrote: Ditto on Kim's comment about history of engines. If a question came up about an engine, I would bet someone on this board would have an answer and George (gcb) would have one in his collection.

andrew

Nope. Oldest Fox I have is a .19 from about 1953. It has two venturi holes (for a two needle valve setup) and a rounded piston baffle.

George

Ivanhoe Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:36 am

Another interesting Fox engine, Hustler (Fox) .10 running on my test bed...

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Hustle10

The Hustler was a thinly disguised Fox .10, which you could get on free trial!

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Hustle11

Most parts are interchangable with the Fox .10, .07, & .09, and as I have discovered, the needle valve is the same as the Fox .049

I also had it running on one of those "Ghost" props!

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Phanto11

test stands - More Fun with Foxes ! - Page 4 Phanto11

Kim Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:08 am

Cool-o !!!! Not surprisingly, never knew about this! Learning tho !!!!

Ken Cook Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:41 am

I own a Fox.07 which I believe was known as the Comet. The engine was one that my father had stashed away for 40+ years. I set it up on a plane and ran it. I was quite impressed by it's performance. A terrific needling engine but it had a tendency to just shut off. I figured it was the plug and never explored it any further. I happened to notice one day that the ball socket had a large amount of play. The Fox used the same method as Cox for conrod to piston joint. I tried to use the Cox tool and the piston shattered in 5 pieces. I was pretty upset by this. Plugs can be somewhat difficult to find for the .049- .07 engines. Ken

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