RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee

Daligh Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:05 am

Hi Folks.
I am hoping to build a Guillows Piratus Porter PC-6 as a .020 Pee Wee RC model.
As you see fit, please: Comment - Advise - Criticise

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I brought the following from this thread.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t14175p25-new-020-muffler-kit-2620-it-seems-a-shame-to-open-the-packaging-rc-ideas-for-the-020-pee-wee#184504

smooth_bill wrote:Daligh,

I see serious problems with fuel proofing an internal engine bay in what was designed as a stick & tissue model. Might be better to install a fuel proof firewall and keep all engine oil splatter out side where cleanup is easiest. All engine exhaust has a way of finding itself inside where pressure is lowered in flight by airflow around the tapered fuselage.

Have you searched for a powered scale model design or kit of the Porter?

Generally, structure of a rubber model is not strong enough to resist the vibrations of an IC engine, or the increased weight.

I don't mean to discourage you, but see some of the problems I've run into when converting to IC engine power.

Bill

Thanks Bill much appreciated advice.
You have more than confirmed my own worries regarding conversion from rubber to IC and regarding the overall strength and 'crash-ability'!

As to finding a powered model. There is a 40" span PC-6 available but it uses a larger capacity engine and I always wanted to RC with a Pee Wee. Back in 1976 I started to 'scratch-build' a 36" span Fiesler Storch (I am in love with STOL) for the .049. I was even intending to make the Handley Page slats function. But. What with a new job, that needed much more than a 40 hour week, and our daughter Ruth appearing, as if from nowhere, followed not too long after by Ben, I had no spare time.

Our top field is about one acre and I hope it will be big enough for a 24" span!? There is a bog below it so if things go wrong it's a soft 'splash' down!

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The kit has two tailplanes. One to scale and a 115% version for flying. The flying version is split for an elevator and rudder so is intended for RC. Back in the day Guillows did supply vinyl bulkheads and IC engine mounting details but have now ceased to do so.

So. I built the scale tailplane with the following results:

#1 - My eyesight, even with my reading spectacle, is poor! I tried a 100mm illuminated magnifier but I can't seem to get everything into focus!
#2 - My arthritic fingers don't place tiny pieces very well!
#3 - My shaky hands don't help! (Probably due to lots of Evening Ale!?)
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t14200-this-evening-s-ale-night-cap-whiskies
#4 - Super 'Phatic does not penetrate very well and leaves dry joints. It does not sand down and the balsa around excess adhesive is damaged. So I bought some Zap CA to try.
#5 - The tailplane trailing edge and the elevator leading edge is too weak! I added extra strip and triangular stiffeners. I shall use wider strips there.
#6 - Thread hinges work well enough! I tried two versions. Wrap around, and needle through. The needle through looks better and CA puts the strength back into the spars.

make your own reeds - RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee Zap10

I am thinking about sheeting the fuselage with 1/32" balsa and making the nose into a fuel proof engine pod. I have bought the sheet already.
I intend to mount the Pee Wee on rubber mounts.

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The back plate is resting against a piece of 'good old Irish' Kingspan polyurethane insulation board. It's uber light but dense and stiff. I tend to fill the wing, tailplane, elevator, fin, and rudder between the ribs and spars with sheets of this. I shall build a jig and slice it it my trusty Eclipse (superbly made in Sheffield) coping saw or a hot wire cutter.

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Is it sensible to use this?

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I think it will end up being a Fairchild AU-23 as the big exhaust will help hide sticky-out bits! And it's nice and grey! I shall not bother with the shark mouth and eyes!

make your own reeds - RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee B_jth210

I like grey and yellow things. I even re-painted the orange and black Husky LTH 151 in various shades of grey!

make your own reeds - RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee 151b10

BTW my given name is Dave. Daligh is from my Irish family/clan name: O'Daligh.

Daligh Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:07 am

Considering mounting the engine in-board!
Don't know what power to weight ratio will actually fly!?
Don't know what wing loading will fly!?
The bearing housing is the rear wishbone from my son's 1979 Tamiya Sand Scorcher. It was broken years ago! I am refurbishing it for my grandson's visit in August. I shall lighten it down to the bone!
No company makes mini UJs capable of 20,000 rpm! Could use titanium or carbon fibre for the torque tube.

US Engineers managed to build the P39 (I know it was not very good so they sold it to the UK and sent if free to the USSR) so I should be able to again similar!

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Levent Suberk Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:46 am

Hi Daligh, thanks for the interesting thread. I think that these torque tube, as like as boat drive unit can be source of some problems. Front end mount must be very sturdy due vibration. Perhaps direct driven propeller is better.

I remembered A-10 Thunderbolts when I see the grey camouflaged Porter. Thunderbolts are very effective and interesting airplanes, perhaps best ground attack airplane ever built.

Daligh Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:50 am

Levent Suberk wrote:Hi Daligh, thanks for the interesting thread. I think that these torque tube, as like as boat drive unit can be source of some problems. Front end mount must be very sturdy due vibration. Perhaps direct driven propeller is better.

I remembered A-10 Thunderbolts when I see the grey camouflaged Porter. Thunderbolts are very effective and interesting airplanes, perhaps best ground attack airplane ever built.

Thanks for that Levent.

I am hoping that the rubber mounts will help alleviate vibration problems!?

Like yourself I adore the A-10. As an engineer that is the kind of plane I would design. The A-6 Skyraider is also one of my favourites!

Dave.

happydad Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:59 pm

Levent Suberk wrote:Hi Daligh, thanks for the interesting thread. I think that these torque tube, as like as boat drive unit can be source of some problems. Front end mount must be very sturdy due vibration. Perhaps direct driven propeller is better.

I remembered A-10 Thunderbolts when I see the grey camouflaged Porter. Thunderbolts are very effective and interesting airplanes, perhaps best ground attack airplane ever built.

Daligh: I agree with Levent on the direct drive approach as long as the engine is mounted to the fuselage solidly, as well as the outer bearing is mounted solidly. Maybe you could make some kind of light weight “roll cage” device so the engine mount and prop drive bearing were one solid, but light unit. It is hard to tell from your picture what the direct drive actually looked like, but the concept you show looks solid.
I have no experience with rubber shock mounts, but they always seem to cause some sort of internal vibration within themselves. Some boat people have complained about using rubber mounts and they typically stick to hardwood mounts. Two Cents

Happydad

Daligh Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:04 pm

happydad wrote:
Levent Suberk wrote:Hi Daligh, thanks for the interesting thread. I think that these torque tube, as like as boat drive unit can be source of some problems. Front end mount must be very sturdy due vibration. Perhaps direct driven propeller is better.

I remembered A-10 Thunderbolts when I see the grey camouflaged Porter. Thunderbolts are very effective and interesting airplanes, perhaps best ground attack airplane ever built.

Daligh: I agree with Levent on the direct drive approach as long as the engine is mounted to the fuselage solidly, as well as the outer bearing is mounted solidly. Maybe you could make some kind of light weight “roll cage” device so the engine mount and prop drive bearing were one solid, but light unit. It is hard to tell from your picture what the direct drive actually looked like, but the concept you show looks solid.
I have no experience with rubber shock mounts, but they always seem to cause some sort of internal vibration within themselves. Some boat people have complained about using rubber mounts and they typically stick to hardwood mounts.

Happydad

WOW! Thanks for that.

What a brilliant insight into the whole concept.

I intend to bench built it and see what happens.

Once again. Thanks for your insightful critique.

Dave.

gkamysz Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:56 pm

You'll want to look over this.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5056

happydad Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:41 pm

gkamysz wrote:You'll want to look over this.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5056

Good article. Be sure to download the supplements. They are step by step with pictures.

AND if you need any slot car axle and bearings, bronze only in American, but ball bearings in metrics equivalent with axle. I think, think, that the axle thread is maybe the same as the engine prop screw thread. Will look tomorrow.

Nice racer too.

>>>>edited 7-17-2020 8:45 p.m. PST. To note that the article was for a tee dee .049 size engine which I assumed when I spoke about the slot car axles threads. I will repost slot car data tomorrow if there is interest. <<<<<<<<<<<

Happydad RC Plane

Daligh Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:01 pm

Thanks for the link Greg

Very interesting and useful.

happy dad.
I fitted ball bearings when I bought the 2nd hand 1979 Sand Scorcher for my son in 1992.
I am well on with the rebuild/refurbishment for my grandson.

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happydad Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:29 pm

Daligh wrote:Thanks for the link Greg

Very interesting and useful.

happy dad.
I fitted ball bearings when I bought the 2nd hand 1979 Sand Scorcher for my son in 1992.
I am well on with the rebuild/refurbishment for my grandson.

check the 3 and choose the 2 with the tightest fit, don't want any wobble at 15,000 to 20,000rpm. these are probably larger than the Cox slot car axles anyway. have fun.

happydad RC Plane

Daligh Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:35 pm

Latest idea inspired by the 'Torque Tube' used on Prosche 924/944/964.

Carbon Fibre Tubes.
Outer: 14 x 12 - Cut away to leave three 'prongs' to clear the bolting ribs on the crankcase and the cylinder. Bracketed at the end to bolt to the new backplate already on its way from COX CA.
Liner: 12 x 10 - To act as bearing stops.
Drive Shaft: 6 x 4

Bearings: 12 x 6
Coupling: Ball and Pin - Something like this.

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Levent Suberk Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:43 pm

Very good idea Daligh. How do you fix the bearings inside tubing ? Gluing?

Daligh Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:41 pm

Levent Suberk wrote:Very good idea Daligh. How do you fix the bearings inside tubing ? Gluing?

Well. That's the idea at the moment but a steel bearing may not glue very well into the carbon fibre.

Since I drew that I have been thinking that it might be better to move the front, propeller bearing, inboard a few millimetres and use two more short pieces of 12 x 10 glued to the inside of the 14 x 12.

I might have other ideas!

Perhaps you have a suggestion?

Levent Suberk Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:17 pm

Very good idea Dave Very Happy

happydad Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:47 pm

gkamysz wrote:You'll want to look over this.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5056

I printed out the plan and instructions. It looks like a great plane, but uses a tee dee .049. Uses an O&R boat universal and 1/8inch slot car axle with a pillow block Mounted to frame with hardwood near the shaft exit and a prop thrust washer on the outside of the pillow block-airplane fuselage.
Looks like a solid design.

Happydad RC Plane

Daligh Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:33 am

happydad wrote:
gkamysz wrote:You'll want to look over this.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5056

I printed out the plan and instructions. It looks like a great plane, but uses a tee dee .049. Uses an O&R boat universal and 1/8inch slot car axle with a pillow block Mounted to frame with hardwood near the shaft exit and a prop thrust washer on the outside of the pillow block-airplane fuselage.
Looks like a solid design.

Happydad

I down loaded all of the .pdfs for that plane and have read through them all. Like you state it certainly is a solid design! i.e.: Heavy!
As with the Bell P39, and the P63, the theme appears to be the search for 'streamlining'!? My intention is to get the motor inboard, in as light a way as possible, for aesthetics and because I want to try to engineer the idea.

I have been studying WW1 and WW2 aircraft since childhood and have well over 300 books on the subject. From what little I know of the P39/63 types the mid engine configuration meant that they were somewhat too stable in the lateral plane for air-to-air combat and were slow. (Like the P51, it would have been interesting to see how they performed with a Merlin or Griffon motor. Did they ever build Griffon powered P51s? I have looked but can find no reference to such.) But they did make good ground attack aircraft as they dived like a stone and the engine gave the pilot good protection. The big cannon was a real asset in this role and the tricycle under carriage gave great ground handling. The Russians loved them!

I don't have any books devoted to the P39/63 types I may try to find some as I am now interested in the philosophy being the design.

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Levent Suberk Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:50 am

Do-335 Pfeil is a good example:

make your own reeds - RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee Dornie10

Levent Suberk Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:02 am

Levent Suberk Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:11 am

Great library. Very Happy

My favorite book is the Stuka Pilot by Rudel. Ballantines books.

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Daligh Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:21 am

I had overlooked the Arrow.

All people interested in WW2 aircraft should read Eric 'Winkle' Brown's books. He flew hundreds of Allied and Axis aircraft and even landed a Mosquito on an aircraft carrier.

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Daligh Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:29 am

Levent Suberk wrote:Great library. My favorite book is the Stuka Pilot by Rudel. Ballantines books.

I have seen it available on Kindle but not read it yet. Trouble is I left my Kindle reader somewhere in Heathrow when going through one of the security check points last January. Must buy a new one as my iPhone is too small to read on!

Kindle has quite a lot of good WW2 and some WW1 pilot biographies that are no longer available in print!

Daligh Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:03 am

Like yourself, I have always been interested in 'Ground Attack' aircraft, hence my love of the A-6 and a-10.

But the Germans got it wrong in both world wars! The 'Schlachtflieger' in WW1 and the Stuka in WW2 were the wrong way to go. Both relied on air superiority. In WW1 German fighters never ventured over the Allied side of the trenches so the Schlachtflieger were sitting ducks. Likewise the Stuka. It was OK in Poland, and the early days in Russia, but over England and later in Russia they also became sitting ducks.

For a change, the British, who more often than not got it wrong, got it right with Camel TF and the Salamander in WW1 and the Typhoons and Beaufighters (50mm cannon in a Beaufighter) in WW2. The Russians sort of mixed up the two concepts with the "IL-2 Sturmovik" but by the they had fighters capable of air superiority.

Even the Yanks got it spot on with the Douglas range of Skyraiders from A-1 through to A-7. What beautiful planes!

Two years ago I visited the Military Aircraft Museum near Prague in the Czech Republic. By prior agreement I was permitted to crawl all over the aircraft. They have couple of Ilyushin aircraft: Il-2 and Il-10. Flipping big lumps they are!

I had to import this book from the USA and it cost a lot of cash due import duties and postage. But when I saw it had been printed I just had to own it!

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Daligh Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:03 am

I have made a few alterations to my design.

Firstly I have changed the bearings to 6x10x3 Flanged. This permits me to mount them into the ends of the 12 mm inner tube. Doing this means that I can build the inner/brgs/props-haft/half-coupling as a complete sub-assembly. It will enable me to slide it into the 14 mm outer tube while the engine + half-coupling are mounted to it. I have yet to decide how to retain the two parts together nor how to retain the prop-shaft.

I have ordered the carbon tubes and bearings. One problem is that I slipped up when ordering the tube. The supplier stated UK, but when I got the invoice it turns out the tubes are coming from Hong Kong and delivery could be 2 months!

I still have to design the mounting system for outer tube to motor and .049 throttle to .020 backplate.

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Thanks for the flag happy dad.

Levent Suberk Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:41 am

Hi Dave, very good piece of engineering. I think that you need two collars inside of outer tubing to retain ball bearings, one in front and one in rear of flanged bearings. These collars can be made from aluminum tubing or aluminum rod if you have a lathe. Four small machine screws retain the collars.

Daligh Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:26 pm

Levent Suberk wrote:Hi Dave, very good piece of engineering. I think that you need two collars inside of outer tubing to retain ball bearings, one in front and one in rear of flanged bearings. These collars can be made from aluminum tubing or aluminum rod if you have a lathe. Four small machine screws retain the collars.

Thanks Levent, but I shall glue the bearings into the 12mm tube. Then, I shall retain the 12mm tube inside the 14mm tube with a single plastic screw.

Although the carbon fibre tube will not be delivered for some time, I have made a jig to enable me to slot the 14mm tube accurately so as to fit snugly onto the Pee Wee crankcase. I have used a piece of 14mm steel tube to prove the jig.

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RC build of a Guillows Porter PC-6 for .020 Pee Wee

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