Propellers?

oldguy Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Who's props do you guys use? And should they be wood, composite or what? I'm talking about sizes from 7" and up.
Are wood props best or not? Also where to buy to get the most for my money. I did have a hobby shop nearby, not a very good though. I had to pick from what they would have on hand, but they have closed their doors so no hobby shop around.

Ken Cook Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:37 pm

I will say old iron generally likes wood props. It's lighter on the shaft and easier on the engine. Old props where generally a bit light on pitch regardless of how they were advertised. In addition, the older wood props, Rev-Ups, Top Flite, AHM, and many others were wider paddle blades. This keeps the engine in check due to the load of the blades. Therefore, if you choose a more modern prop of the same diam and pitch such as a Master Airscrew you might not exactly be as happy as before.

APC props are more accurate throughout their stations in regards to pitch. You may need to drop a number in pitch say if you were using a 10x6, you might need a 10x5. The other thing in regards to APC is the weight. These are far heavier than the old woodies and this can slow things down a bit more than you would like. The 10x5 has some good qualities due to it's weight. It can take a Fox .35 that's vibrating and make it run like a sewing machine and still provide enough drive to be very consistent.

Wood props are getting scarce. Zinger is no longer making props, RSM offers some nice wood props but your paying for them. The BYO line from Brodak are very crude and not productive in terms of using them. RSM props are $6-7 a piece. I have some XOAR props in the 10x5 range which I've been happy with.

I generally, I do what I need to in order to satisfy the flight using APC props. They're readily available and they're generally well balanced out of the package. I purchase about 4 dozen 8x4's a season and use darn near everyone. When we fly combat over high grass, landings usually break them regardless of how your prop is clocked. I like Master Airscrews for their cost unfortunately they're the worst prop for balance issues. I generally start by sanding the painted letters off of the heavy side. Having a wide assortment is generally in order and offering prop choices are difficult due to different altitudes and climates.

For stunt, I love my Rev-Ups. Long out of production and harder to find and those that have em, don't want to part with them. All of the hobby shops in my neck of the woods are done. Sadly, it has me going to the internet such as Tower Hobbies. I have made a few purchases since the change over and it was business as usual. No issues and fast delivery. If your looking for more exotic stuff, Steve Wilks of Eliminator props offers some carbon fiber and glass variants.

oldguy Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:59 pm

Sounds like apc is the go to, so if i were using 7x6 m/a props and went to the apc should i then use a 7x5. Also i was looking to get a 9x6 m/a for my ringmaster that has McCoy .35. Should i be looking at getting a 9x5 apc prop?

Ken Cook Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Keep a 6 pitch for the Mccoy. You will achieve much better torque with that engine running it in the lower rpm's. The Mccoy is pretty archaic in terms of construction so keeping the rpm's low and the oil high is a must. A 10x6 Master Airscrew works quite well with the Mccoy. It would work terrific on a Ringmaster using that prop. The problem with the Master Airscrews is that you have to be careful upon seating them on a Mccoy prop driver due to the bump lugs. The back of the Master Airscrew hub is hollow and the majority of the bumps don't sit within the hollow cavities but tightening it and then backing it off and re tightening will seat the prop sufficiently. I'm not a big fan of the hollow spots on the hub of the Master Airscrew, one of the guys I know had one throw a blade when it was used on a higher performance Fox. The blade went through his cheek. He has a very bad scar to this day. This is not of concern on a lower performance engine.

GallopingGhostler Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:01 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I will say old iron generally likes wood props. It's lighter on the shaft and easier on the engine. Old props where generally a bit light on pitch regardless of how they were advertised.

Oddly enough, I found that out to be true. I am a new comer to Enya engines. Started using them 4 years ago. I have an Enya .09-III TV with an old Tatone .09-.19 Peace Pipe muffler that was difficult to start and adjust the needle on when using the standard plastic APC and Master Airscrew props. The needle was very fickle to adjust and get right for some odd reason. I put an NOS older Top Flite wood 7x6 prop, it started right up and became very easy and consistent to needle. Why beats me, must be that the engine likes the lower inertia of a wood prop. It throttled fine throughout the RPM range, made a half-A RC plane downright fun, a worthy upgrade for that trainer-like .049 job.

For stunt, I love my Rev-Ups. Long out of production and harder to find and those that have em, don't want to part with them. All of the hobby shops in my neck of the woods are done. Sadly, it has me going to the internet such as Tower Hobbies.

About a year ago, I bought a dozen Rev-Up 6x3 wood props for a reasonable price on E-Bay. Yes, finding decent props these days for glow power are getting harder, including the smaller sizes for half-A and A size engines. I'd be interested to learn of any electric props that are easier to get, which have the stamina to withstand the internal combustion hammering of glow engines.

oldguy Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Ok. What is a good prop for the os max .25fp? Say for a R/M. Or a super satan?

Ken Cook Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:18 pm

If your flying stunt, the .25 FP uses a 9x4. Some have used 10x4's, I tried it and didn't care for them and went back to 9". I run .25 FP's on combat planes where I use 8x4's and 9x3N's . This is due to running them on bladder pressure. If your running suction and want fast, try a 9x5. These recommendations are for APC props.

One prop I was using on the FP.20 was a black Tornado 8x6 with stellar results. Surprisingly, it didn't load the engine ( Probably due to being 8") but it allowed for generous rpm's and drive through the maneuvers. This was on a kit built Flite Streak and very unexpected. Experimenting can sometimes pay off.

This is where it gets to be a pain. Master Airscrew changes their blade designs frequently. If you come across old stock on Ebay it's a good find. The blade width was twice what it was compared to today's offerings. The newer GF series Master Airscrews are very thin bladed. They will suit modern engines better as this is what they were designed for. One prop in particular that I like to use on the Fox .35 and Mccoy is the Master Airscrew 9.5x6. It turns up well and offers generous speed. However, I saw the last time I looked at Tower Hobbies that this was not out of stock but discontinued. I sent a e-mail to Master Airscrew and I received everything but what I asked about. I really didn't want to know about the status of Tower Hobbies, I was more interested if this prop was still being made.

While were on the Ringmaster subject, something else jumped into my head in terms of importance. Are you making your own line sets or using pre made line lengths? The reason I ask is because something very valueable here is line length. Your eyelet to eyelet length should be around 58' - 58'-6". If your using pre made lengths, they could be anywhere from 60' or longer. They were horrible at length consistency and equal line lengths. Keeping the line lengths at what I'm suggesting offers you decent speed and it really is the proper length to fly the Ringmaster. It will offer good speed and line tension especially in the overhead maneuvers. To get the most of the prop, this is where you want to be. Ken

Ken Cook Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:12 pm

On another subject, Top Flite wood Power Point propellers. These props are very poorly designed and downright dangerous. They will work, not as effective as older designs, but they work. The tips are angled. As a result, the lead edge during rotation is the shorter edge which upon a ground strike can be catastrophic. The longer side of the angle contacts the ground, the prop then splits. This split can run from tip to center of crank and I have had them throw the entire blade yielding a shaft run. If you use them, be careful and a glove is a good idea even though it's wood. The longer tip is too thin and very sharp. These props are beech and the straight grain is very susceptible to fracturing.

Mark Boesen Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:17 pm

lol, i remember the 'power-point' props, they came out about the last time i still was active, lots of RPM but no go and yep, a bit of grass (R/C) taxing would chew tips.

GallopingGhostler Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:29 am

I never used the T/F Power Point props. I gather then they were more gimmick than they were practical. Seems after 70 years of mass produced model prop designs, there hasn't been much improvement except may be for the APC's. I remember the Master Airscrew props 30 years ago. They seemed to be better balanced than T/F nylons. Over time, I've seen the changes to the quality of molding. Appears that the dies were wearing out as there would be more flashing. As far as balance, with the wear of the molds I guess there were wearing unevenly as well.

Been looking at Hobby King's APC like props that goes for much cheaper than the US, been tempted to order some.

Mark Boesen Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:06 pm

i also kinda think the marketing of Power Point was to make them 'APC' like.

GallopingGhostler Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:02 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:i also kinda think the marketing of Power Point was to make them 'APC' like.

Problem with marginal improvement gimmickery is that modelers pick up this very quickly, hard to fool. Regarding gimmickery, I remember when Testors discontinued the lighter Red Head engine series and came out with their so called superior Series 21 Black Heads. They were a disaster, much heavier with only a marginal increase in power, when all others were working on their Schneurle ported designs. They took up space in hobby shops.

IMO, Top Flite hay day was their white nylon with red silk screening. I used the Cox reed valve half-A's and as such bought them back in the 1970's because they were very cheap. I could buy 3 props for a dollar. I also bought the yellow Tornado nylons. Although both seriously needed balancing, I bought a balancer and sanded the back side of the heavier blade. Once balanced they did my fine. If I nicked a prop tip, I'd shorten the other correspondingly and rebalance. I liked them because they were sturdy and would stand up to grassed field strikes really well.

Then in the 1980's, I went to Master Airscrew, because T/F discontinued their nylons and these were now available and reasonably priced. But back then, the molding was the cleanest I've ever seen and they were reasonably tough.

Seems like the modeling industry wants to kill of the nitro engines, as I see less and less support available, even in half-A with the big name mail order houses like Horizon, Tower Hobbies, even Hobby King, etc.

oldguy Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:11 pm

Ken Cook wrote:If your flying stunt, the .25 FP uses a 9x4. Some have used 10x4's, I tried it and didn't care for them and went back to 9". I run .25 FP's on combat planes where I use 8x4's and 9x3N's . This is due to running them on bladder pressure. If your running suction and want fast, try a 9x5. These recommendations are for APC props.

One prop I was using on the FP.20 was a black Tornado 8x6 with stellar results. Surprisingly, it didn't load the engine ( Probably due to being 8") but it allowed for generous rpm's and drive through the maneuvers. This was on a kit built Flite Streak and very unexpected. Experimenting can sometimes pay off.

This is where it gets to be a pain. Master Airscrew changes their blade designs frequently. If you come across old stock on Ebay it's a good find. The blade width was twice what it was compared to today's offerings. The newer GF series Master Airscrews are very thin bladed. They will suit modern engines better as this is what they were designed for. One prop in particular that I like to use on the Fox .35 and Mccoy is the Master Airscrew 9.5x6. It turns up well and offers generous speed. However, I saw the last time I looked at Tower Hobbies that this was not out of stock but discontinued. I sent a e-mail to Master Airscrew and I received everything but what I asked about. I really didn't want to know about the status of Tower Hobbies, I was more interested if this prop was still being made.

While were on the Ringmaster subject, something else jumped into my head in terms of importance. Are you making your own line sets or using pre made line lengths? The reason I ask is because something very valueable here is line length. Your eyelet to eyelet length should be around 58' - 58'-6". If your using pre made lengths, they could be anywhere from 60' or longer. They were horrible at length consistency and equal line lengths. Keeping the line lengths at what I'm suggesting offers you decent speed and it really is the proper length to fly the Ringmaster. It will offer good speed and line tension especially in the overhead maneuvers. To get the most of the prop, this is where you want to be. Ken

Ken are talking about these?
https://www.masterairscrew.com/collections/r-c-propellers-for-model-airplanes/products/gf-series-9-5x6-propeller

What about the scimitar series props are they anything worth using?

Ken Cook Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:53 pm

Thank you for posting that link. That is the correct size and pitch but I can see the prop isn't exactly like the ones we use. As I mentioned, the Windsor company who makes the Master Airscrew brand changes constantly. It's a very viable prop for .35 size engines. Reason being is that the prop shape is slightly different than a 10x6 that could be trimmed down. Our stunt field requires mufflers being stock or tongue mufflers. It's no mystery when using them that the engine loses power due to heat. The 9.5x6 allows a lighter load and good drive in the overheads. Trimming props and thinning blade area is another option. I have done this many times but it's not something that happens in 15 minutes. It takes a lot of experimenting and time. I personally fly more than a I build.

I told many at the club in regards to the prop being discontinued. Many times I ask for those to send frequent e-mails to these companies in regards to props that we use. APC for example discontinued a propeller and we were able to have them make a few hundred more. George Ghostler mentioned the lack of support equipment in the nitro arena. Sadly, this is reality and if you find something that works it's important to buy a ample supply. Thunder Tiger made a version of props in sizes that worked exceptionally well in whole number pitches and 1/2 pitches. They were labeled as Cyclone and sold individually or in pkgs. of 6. They're no longer being offered in the states.

I have tossed the idea around in regards to making a few wood props. Rev Up made some props in the 70's which were 8 x 6.5's and 8x 7's. These props work exceptionally well on my combat .36 engines. I'm down to about 6 of them and getting concerned. I have used APC props, but they have thrown their blades due to the C-2 hub used on their sport line of props. APC makes a larger D-1 hub but not in the sizes I need.

fredvon4 Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:57 pm

I am constantly amazed at (SOME/OK, MANY ) Hobby King items and prices

Guilty knowing almost 100% of the inventory is the exact problem that is killing off Original Product Propriety Copyright and Patent...the Chinese just do not care...and Yes! all of us frugal customers are to blame

That said--- I have ordered and played with many of the wood Hobby King Turnegy line...many are Xoar, Zinger, and APC clones at stupid low prices....and of the 7 or so I played with...6 were near perfect balance right our of the package....

My only gripe is the variety is pretty vast. Trying to decide on a shape, material, and sized takes a lot of scrolling and cross comparing that the HK web site does NOT do well

oldguy Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 pm

Talking about M/A props. What about their scimitar props?

Ken Cook Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:06 pm

I've used them once and I found nothing that would say they're not a good choice.

GallopingGhostler Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:12 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I told many at the club in regards to the prop being discontinued. Many times I ask for those to send frequent e-mails to these companies in regards to props that we use. APC for example discontinued a propeller and we were able to have them make a few hundred more. George Ghostler mentioned the lack of support equipment in the nitro arena. Sadly, this is reality and if you find something that works it's important to buy a ample supply. Thunder Tiger made a version of props in sizes that worked exceptionally well in whole number pitches and 1/2 pitches. They were labeled as Cyclone and sold individually or in pkgs. of 6. They're no longer being offered in the states.

Glad to see Ken that you could convince them to do a limited bulk run of a discontinued prop. I used to buy props in 2's, 4's, etc. because I could go back to any of the hobby stores or on line and get them. Now, I'm buying them in 6's, 12's, etc. because I don't know when I'll be able to get more.

Hobby King has discontinued under the .52 Schneurle engines, and I foresee even the larger ones petering out at some point. I finally got a good used long discontinued AP .09 RC ABC. Even their very popular AP .15 RC is out of stock and no promise of being fulfilled, most likely that's it. Nitroplanes.com has been out of engines totally for the past couple years.

Also I noticed that when FAA started requiring modelers to register their names for an FAA number (license), some of your older modelers decided to give up model airplanes altogether. Sad

I hope this hasn't been a continuing trend. Shocked

Ken Cook Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:25 pm

I personally feel that the only real tribute to nitro is the truck and buggy market. I think without them, glow plugs, fuels, and hardware related items would quickly start drying up. Electric props seem to be the commonality and nitro props could certainly become even more difficult to locate over the next few years. I believe there will always be props available, just not what we as a modeller want to pay for them. Your purchasing logic unfortunately is the way you have to think today.

oldguy Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I personally feel that the only real tribute to nitro is the truck and buggy market. I think without them, glow plugs, fuels, and hardware related items would quickly start drying up. Electric props seem to be the commonality and nitro props could certainly become even more difficult to locate over the next few years. I believe there will always be props available, just not what we as a modeller want to pay for them. Your purchasing logic unfortunately is the way you have to think today.

I know here the hobby shop that closed was terrible , all I saw every time I went looking for possible a prop was some young guys playing with their nitro cars. Every time I went in I always made it a point to comment on their balsa wood display, it was dismal, I also said you gonna restock your balsa. They would say yea, we order some should be in a week or so. They never did. All the shops cater to electric or r/c cars.

GallopingGhostler Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Yeah, unfortunately that is true. There is only one hobby store within 95 miles of me in Amarillo TX. It is mainly an RC car shop, although they have a token amount of mostly RC heli and little RC plane stuff. I envision that the RC plane fuel will probably peter out and all that will be left is 100% Synthetic oil RC car fuel. Then I'll have to dump a liberal amount of Castor to get it up to par for iron piston steel cylinder engines, but will still be able to fly.

Ken Cook Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:43 pm

George, to set the record straight I wasn't the individual responsible for the making of the additional APC props. My control line club is affiliated with many. In addition, we always had a joint club which is r/c. For the past few years we joined with the r/c folks. We have two flying fields within 10 minutes of each other. No one seems to listen to us little folks. Credit is due to the larger club which has the bigger connections. Control line flyers don't seem to carry a alpha status in the big scheme of things. It's been mentioned to me that more people collect barb wire than people that fly control line coast to coast.

I can't tell you the amount of e-mails I sent to OS in regards to the discontinuation of control line engines. NOT ONE was ever returned. In addition, they had a contact for consumer offerings in terms of how to make their product better and ideas of consumers. I sent them 3 e-mails in regards to the remote needle setup offered on the LA engine series. Those needle valves work with bladder pressure but the taper and thread pitch is too aggressive. Once again, no response.
Regardless if they used the idea, a consideration response would've or I say should've been in order. The problem was with Great Planes which the inquiries were sent to. I had dealt with OS in the late 80's with terrific turn around and support.

GallopingGhostler Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:24 pm

Ken Cook wrote:No one seems to listen to us little folks. Credit is due to the larger club which has the bigger connections. Control line flyers don't seem to carry a alpha status in the big scheme of things. It's been mentioned to me that more people collect barb wire than people that fly control line coast to coast.

I can't tell you the amount of e-mails I sent to OS in regards to the discontinuation of control line engines. NOT ONE was ever returned. In addition, [....] I sent them 3 e-mails in regards to the remote needle setup offered on the LA engine series. Those needle valves work with bladder pressure but the taper and thread pitch is too aggressive. Once again, no response.

Regardless if they used the idea, a consideration response would've or I say should've been in order. The problem was with Great Planes which the inquiries were sent to. I had dealt with OS in the late 80's with terrific turn around and support.

Oh, I hear you, Ken. I gather that they only listen to people who are really big names like the top multi-year AMA RC contest winners, AMA top leadership, etc. Yes, you'd think they would for the sake of PR even send a thank you note or post card. CL doesn't count because things have merged with huge companies, who are far removed from the average consumer.

Back in the 1980's, I had two carded bubble pack NOS Jetex 50 engines but no cartridges to power them with. I thought may be Bill Winter would like them. So, I mailed to his address listed with his articles at Model Aviation. In less than 2 weeks, he wrote me a nice, short personally typed letter from a manual typewriter, thanking me for the engines, and a little of his experiences with RC and his Buzzard Bombshell. May be if I can locate Bill's letter, one of these days I'll scan and post it. I've also E-mailed Joe Wagner, engine guru and got personal responses from him in the early 2000's.

These are the last of greats I gather. Also I gather that when OS was their own distributor and not part of a larger conglomeration, that you received personal satisfaction by their personal responses.

From what others have shared, Ken Enya has also been friendly with responses.

I've found the Evo .46 RNVA that I mounted to my McCoy .35 RH's to be very fine threaded plus O-ringed, I don't know if something like that might be workable, since Evo engines are still available.

getback Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:55 am

George Check with 1/2A nut (brad) he has been using the E-props and doing well with them he can give you the links for the right ones to use. Babe Bee .049

oldguy Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:36 am

getback wrote:George Check with 1/2A nut (brad) he has been using the E-props and doing well with them he can give you the links for the right ones to use.

1/2A nut> What E-props are the one's to use with our Cox engines?

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