I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel...

pkrankow Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:33 pm

I might be making trouble, we'll see. One MK-17 I guess I sniped.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIESEL-MK-17-IN-PLASTIC-BOX-1-48cc-VERY-GOOD-CONDITION-NO-RESEERVE-/281045810644?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=2V82EG8uOU%2BUwmDdG6QYbhMzX9c%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Never had a diesel, been reading on them quite a bit. I really thought I would be trying a Cox diesel first though...

Anybody actually run and fly one of these?

Links to some of my reading material:
http://carlsonengineimports.net/FAQ.html
http://modelenginenews.org/faq/fuels.html

If it fits the Ringmaster Jr I plan to put it on it.

Phil

Godsey3.0 Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Of all the diesels I have done, my Cox conversions have given me the most trouble. Their usual quirks combined with new diesel finickiness can cause some frustration. Starting on a true diesel was much easier for me.

I do not have that specific engine but, I do have one quite like it. I have a Map3 or Marz 2.5cc Diesel. Rear Rotor, black cooling fins, ball bearings. From what I have heard they can be a bit of a hit and miss. The quality control can be a bit lacking. Mine turned out great and I was told I was lucky. I have flown mine and it did great.

The key to running a diesel is good fuel and watch out for flooding. Some people use Old English Mix. Equal parts of Oil (usually castor), Kerosene, and Ether. With my Cox engines I drop the oil to 21% and raise the Ether and Kerosene. I am unsure of the fuel requirements for this engine. Old English Mix is a good starting point though.

Do you intend to mix the fuel on your own? If you intend to use starting fluid then I suggest you get John Deere Starting Fluid. It is 80% Ether and 20% Kero (other chemicals counted as Kero). Messing with the wrong fluid can cause heaps of frustration.

One benefit of starting on Cox engines is if you do break something, replacement parts are readily available.

Replyin' Rolla

pkrankow Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:52 pm

I don't have a source for premixed fuel lined up, but the John Deer dealer is just down the street and they know me well. I'll see if I can hit them up for some Tygon fuel line when I go visit. I have been a little confused as to the ether mix but have not looked up a MSDS yet.

If this is like most other engines I expect I should open the case and flush it just to be safe.

The plan is to "fly a 2x4" as my neighbor calls my test stand.

I do understand that I should first prime the intake, get it to start so I can get the compression more or less set before fueling the tank and chasing the needle setting.

Phil

gcb Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:12 pm

Phil,

I have three of the MK-17's and all run well. I would suggest an 8x4 prop for initial runs until you get used to it. Compression should be close since it is used...unless you play with it. Note that the one you reference has a red insert in the intake. To the left is another intake. The red one is larger for more power. The other one affords a little better fuel draw.

They are good diesels but replacement parts may be hard to find.

BTW, the Mk-17 is a 1.5cc (.09ci) engine.

If you can get help learning to operate diesels it greatly decreases the learning curve.

George

pkrankow Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:58 am

George, Since there appears to be no paperwork, the differences between the intakes is something I wouldn't have known. Thank you. The link is to the auction I won.

Any chance you can scan and upload the paperwork since you have 3?

Would you recommend I swap to the "clear" colored intake from the red, or try it as set up and see?

No one that I know has functional experience with diesels. My Dad tried to run a diesel with my uncle, but neither of them even could get it to run. My neighbor and his relations run OS engines only. I am trying to do this without in-person guidance.

I know this is an .09, but understand diesels put out more power for the displacement. The plane I am considering putting it on .09 is the lower end of recommended power. I am sure I have a few 8x4 props around since that is the recommended size for my Fox 15BB RC. I should have 2 or 3 extras in my box.

Phil

andrew Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:20 am

Phil --

If you don't already have this link, you might want to add it to your list:

http://www.cafes.net/doctordiesel/

andrew

pkrankow Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:53 pm

7 oz can of ether is the only size JD had. Got 1.

I picked up cetane booster from Walmart. The grey Diesel Kleen bottle.

I have K1. Does K1 go stale for this purpose? It is for my garage heater and about 2 years old, looked good and burned just fine a couple weeks ago in the heater. It is in an airtight plastic fuel can.

I have looked at the Doctor Diesel website, didn't have it marked. Thanks.

Looks like I need castor oil, fuel line, and an engine.

Phil

Godsey3.0 Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:26 pm

I have had better luck with fresher Kerosene. From what I have seen it mainly attributes to the amount of carbon/soot that is produced. The first good mix I made was with yellowish kerosene. It was probably pumped out 30 years ago into a gas can. It smelled funny but it worked. I am not sure how it affected starting as I ended up changing my mixture to higher ether to compensate for the John Deere.

All JD cans I have seen have been 7oz. 5.6oz of that is ether. 1.4oz is various chemicals which most just call kerosene.

My most recent Cox mix has been extremely successful for me. I can upload a picture of my mixing list if you would like. I end up with a low compression setting and honey colored oil. Makes a beautiful sound too.

Rippin' Rolla

My mix makes 14 ounces. The is around 414cc which equates to 51.75 8cc tank runs.

Godsey3.0 Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:40 pm

This engine does seem to be too difficult to start. It all comes with practice though.

pkrankow Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:55 pm

I'll take all the help I can get. I look forward to seeing your log page. Thank you.

I wrote a simple spreadsheet so I can easily figure the percentages and floz for mixing. I left the cetane as 100%+cetane% per the doctor diesel recipe.

I am currently looking at the Dr. Diesel recipe with the 4% cetane booster, and your recommendation of 21% castor with the balance as ether and kerosene.

The k1 I have is dyed since it is from the pump, the dye color is good (faint pink), the smell is spot on, and the heater did not produce smoke or unusual odors when I used it a couple weeks ago. I think I may risk it unless there is an economical source of small volumes of kerosene. (mineral spirits?)

Phil

pkrankow Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:57 pm

Nice video.

Phil

Godsey3.0 Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:19 pm

I would only recommend the 21% oil for the Cox. I am unsure of what yours will require. All videos I have seen for it are running on Old English Mix.

1/2a Cox Diesel Mix
5.6oz Ether 40%
5.4oz Kerosene 39%
3oz Castor Oil 21%
14oz Total
414cc

Ingredients
1 Can John Deere (7oz)
4oz Kerosene
3oz Oil-Castor

I wrote that on a sheet a paper to remember it. I was uber thrilled as to how it turned out. I would definitely find the oil requirements for your engine first.

The kerosene I have is from a pump as well. It has little odor and is clear like water.

Rippin' Rolla

Edit: Thought that I would say that that is not my video. I searched youtube for a good one. You can see most of the symptoms a diesel shows for wrong settings are very similar. It usually pops and belches smoke. A little fiddling gets them going though.

gcb Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:05 pm

pkrankow wrote:The k1 I have is dyed since it is from the pump, the dye color is good (faint pink), the smell is spot on, and the heater did not produce smoke or unusual odors when I used it a couple weeks ago. I think I may risk it unless there is an economical source of small volumes of kerosene. (mineral spirits?)

Phil

The K-1 should be fine. Mineral spirits is NOT a substitute. Since you are learning diesel operation I would suggest using commercial mixed fuel if you can get it. That way you will be sure it should work and you can concentrate on the engine. BTW, the MK-17 isa BB diesel so your 21% oil should be adequate. Either intake will work while you break it in on a bench.

I would recommend reading about diesels at this site. It covers almost anything you would ask about break-in, running, etc.:
http://www3.telus.net/dieselcombat/diesel_care.htm

Good luck with your diesel. I'll try to scan those instructions tomorrow.

George

Surfer_kris Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:59 pm

Godsey3.0 wrote:Of all the diesels I have done, my Cox conversions have given me the most trouble. Their usual quirks combined with new diesel finickiness can cause some frustration. Starting on a true diesel was much easier for me.

That's likely due to the teflon gasket heads, they simply don't seal well enough. If you replace the teflon gasket with a gasket made from brass sheet you will get a much better seal and instant starts. I have a PeeWee engine that fires on the first flip when the side of the piston is primed.

pkrankow Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:23 pm

My engine is here.

Tygon tubing at the lawn equipment repair place is about the same price as silicone at the not-so-local LHS.

Phil

Surfer_kris Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Tygon is a little hard, but works fine for everything but the pickup line. There a thin walled neoprene tubing is better.

(NB silicon does not work with diesel fuel)

Godsey3.0 Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:23 pm

My .049 issue is caused by a worn out engine. When pushed against compression it leaks fast enough to turn over in a one second. Does the same thing with any glow head. I never had issues with the teflon heads. If done right they can last quite awhile. I do make my own out of brass though. It is cheaper to do so and they are still capable of being blown if hydrolocked.

Rolla

Godsey3.0 Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:07 pm

Have you tried starting it yet?

RR

gcb Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:46 pm

pkrankow wrote:Tygon tubing at the lawn equipment repair place is about the same price as silicone at the not-so-local LHS.

Phil

Remember, not just the tubing but the fueler also. Anything silicone will swell, and rubber will deteriorate. Tygon and neoprene work well.

George

pkrankow Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:59 pm

No, I haven't done anything with it. My father in law is over for a couple days, we haven't seen him in 5 years. I plan to mess with it tomorrow, maybe. I expect to get the test board cut and the engine mounted if nothing else.

I am suddenly feeling like one of those fancy test stands might be rather nice to have...

Phil

Kim Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:37 am

I've nowhere near the experience of some of you guys, but AM making some furtive steps toward flying more diesel airplanes. I got this conversion from Bernie, and ran it on a 7-4 M.AM prop for a LONG time a while back. It had the teflon gasket installed and lasted for what was almost an hour run (kept refilling the tank in run). I was using "1/2A Diesel" fuel from Davis Diesel, and later some from Eric Clutton since, at this point, I think mixing my own would just add another variable to worry about.

I want to try the metal gasket and get this thing flying on on my "Q-Tee" before too long. I THINK that the teflon gaskets work OK if they aren't damaged during the initial high-compression start, though.

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... 1_15

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... 1_15

I'm currently flying this P.A.W. .09 R/C on my well-traveled Lazy Bee, and we're sort of making friends. I still have a "Blank Moment" once in a while where the thing won't start, and I've got to take a breath and go back to basics to get it running. The low sound is great, and it's fun to freak out my main-stream buddies with an engine that has no glow plug !

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... 1_16

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... 1_16

Surfer_kris Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:47 am

I have a PeeWee head designed for a teflon gasket and I could never get consistent runs from it. The problem is that a small leak will be enough to stop it from firing when flipping, this makes one increase the compression setting until it finally fires and then runs well overcompressed. With a metal gasket instead you have a tight seal and very consisten compression settings. It only needs a little piston prime and it fires each time.

The RJL heads are then much better (shown below), as they are more traditional designs with a counter piston (o-rings sealed though rather than lapped).

PAW engines are great, especially their little .030 with throttle and exhaust collector...

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... Qb_rjl10

diesel trouble - I might be making trouble for my self with a diesel... Qb_rjl10

Kim Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:56 am

Got to try that. What thickness should I use for the gasket?

pkrankow Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:28 pm

Engine ; CHECK
test stand ; CHECK (happens to be almost the same dimensions as the Fox15...means it might not work on my intended airplane without cutting on the nose...)
Fuel ; CHECK (per the recipe posted earlier)
Prop ; CHECK
Fuel line ; CHECK
Suitable fuel tank....drat I knew I forgot something. The metal tanks I have are not the correct tubing size, or need serious cleaning. I guess I am soldering a tank up this weekend.

Emptying a can of ether that was in the deep freeze worked pretty good. Only problem is the K1 and castor crystallized initially when I added the rather frigid ether.

Phil

Godsey3.0 Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:10 pm

Is your fuel separating? Some people have issues if the Kero is mixed with castor first. They do not mix without the ether. I have heard people who add ether last and the mix always separates. I have not had that issue personally.

RR

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