Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!!

coxxoc Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi lads,

I tried to start my pee wee yesterday with no luck!
I followed starting procedure like I always do eg. close needle valve; open it 2 1/2 turns;
fill fuel tank until full; close exhaust ports and then squirt several drps of fuel into ports;
flip prop a few times to work fuel into engine; connect glow head clip to glow head; wind
prop backwards one full turn and release.
Engine started and died after a few seconds. tried another couple of times but still same!
One of the three times I tried engine didn`t even fire. I could hear a sizzling sound when I
was winding prop back the 3rd time. Ok now it`s flooded so closed the needle valve one
full turn and tried to start again without priming. Tried 4 to 5 times to clear engine which it
did because engine fired up for a couple of seconds and then shut off. Closed needle valve
again and followed engine starting procedure again but again engine would not start. By
this time my battery was down to 1.27 V. Could weak power to glow plug be the problem or
could dirt under reed be why engine won`t remain on? I have washed reed since and will try
starting again soon! Flying

p.s. I started this engine 2 days before without any trouble, It
ran for a long time and I tuned it nicely.

**Cribbs74** Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:32 pm

What's the history behind the engine? New? Used? Laid up for a while?

I would have said backplate right off but, you said it flooded so......perhaps not. The good thing is these engines tear down and reassemble in minutes. So my suggestion would be to tear it down and go through it.

More than likely you will find the problem. Is the reed free to float?

coxxoc Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:37 pm

The engine is an original pee wee .020, I`ve had it for six months. I have started it a
number of times in the past. It`s never been in a plane only bench tested. Yes I have
taken it apart and cleaned throughly, put new crankcase gasket and new fuel tube & spring
and yes reed is free. Has copper reed in it.
Flying

**Cribbs74** Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:03 am

coxxoc wrote: The engine is an original pee wee .020, I`ve had it for six months. I have started it a
number of times in the past. It`s never been in a plane only bench tested. Yes I have
taken it apart and cleaned throughly, put new crankcase gasket and new fuel tube & spring
and yes reed is free. Has copper reed in it.

Ok, well assuming everything is good clean and free internally then perhaps you already figured it out by bringing up the battery issue. Try it with a good one and see how it goes. Also the glow head could be suspect or perhaps the fuel.

**Admin** Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:40 am

Check the venturi gasket, the venturi gasket can cause these kinds of problems.

John Goddard Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:37 am

If it's firing on the Prime J then not continuing then it's not
Getting fuel, open n/v half turn.
In my experience particularly with the smaller engines putting
An engine away at say 2.5 turns doesn't mean it will start at the
Same setting next time.
Very Happy

ahrma_581 Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:41 am

John Goddard wrote:In my experience particularly with the smaller engines putting
An engine away at say 2.5 turns doesn't mean it will start at the
Same setting next time.

True dat. Hot run settings for IC engines are leaner than start settings, that's what the choke is for. No choke on these pups, so you have to compensate with the NV setting.

microflitedude Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:06 am

My Black Widow starts at 4 turns out, runs normally at 2.

coxxoc Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Thanks for all the advice!
I did notice when I removed backplate the venturi was not seated properly
but this could`ve shifted by suction when pulling tank away from crankcase?
I will try starting it today and get back to you guys about the result. Flying

jnespappa Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:31 am

I'm new to this, but my experience with a QRC engine which now has an exhaust throttle ring will not start at anything over 1 1/2 turns out on the NV. I tried 2 1/2 and used almost a whole 8cc tank, tried a new battery, went to 2 turns, then finally down to 1 1/2 turns and it sputtered. Another 1/4 turn in and BAM she was running. I now start it at 1 1/2 turns max.

I am in Louisiana with 95 degrees and 90 to 95 percent humidity and near sea level which I am sure is affecting the NV setting.

If my geography brain cells are correct you are prolly approaching winter in Australia but it might be worth a try to close the NV more.

SuperDave Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:44 am

A battery at anything less than 1 1/2 volts is the principle suspect, IMO.

coxxoc Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:45 pm

Thanks jnespappa and superdave for your feedback.

I finally got this little baby to run beautifully!...This is what I did to fix problem?
First I removed back plate and cleaned it throughly and I then attached a 6 inch length of
fuel line to the fuel line attach nib. I then screwed the standard needle valve into the back
plate to the fully closed position. I opened the nv 1 turn out and sucked on the 6 inch fuel line
with my mouth. This excercise gave me a vivid idea of just exactly what was happening
inside my engine when it is running. I then checked the reed valve for a perfect one way
check valve operation. It must check very positively when you blow on the reed retention
area and it must flow air very freely when you suck on it. Suck and blow very rapidly to
observe this action. The reed must not squeal when you blow it shut! My did so I replaced it.
My engine had a old copper reed in it so I replaced it with a new mylar reed and make sure
the reed is perfectly flat as viewed in reflective light.
Now I come to the good part, and found my real problem? what do yo think small particles of
dirt in the fuel do when they encounter the nv with its extremely small rate of flow capability.
All you do to fix this problem is strain your fuel 2 or 3 times through a coffee filter and funnel
into a 1/2 or 1 pint liquor bottle. Don`t use the cheap plastic ones because they are milky and
exhibit poor optical quality. The bottle must be clear glass and narrow, not round for good
viewing in the sunlight. After I filtered my fuel I held the bottle up to the sunlight and looked
for tendrils and flotsam swimming around in suspension. I was suprised at how much was in
the fuel. It is hard to get it perfectly clean at times. What you do is get it as clean as you can,
and then let it set (settle) for a day or two. This debris seems to thrive and actually grow in the fuel.
After I checked and cleaned engine and fuel I put engine back together and guess what? I got
my engine to run with only a few healthy flips. I also forgot to tell you I checked my glow head,
needle, battery, etc.
My conclusion: The smallest bit of dirt in the system will give you trouble like you can`t believe.
I`ve seen guys grinding away with the starter or flipping forever. All this does is wear out the
engine or your fingers. Flying

**RknRusty** Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:46 pm

Yes, you've got it figured out. The orifices are so tiny.
When you clean an engine, especially the tank and backplate, only use lint free rags, like new T-shirt material, and check under a magnifying glass for any stray fibers before reassembling. I buy those rags at Lowes in the paint department. The fuel will get coagulated flotsam in it just sitting on the shelf, so no matter how careful you are, you still have to strain it now and then. I use an inline Dubro filter on my filler syringe. After drawing up the fuel, I give the plunger a punch to backwash it, or either change tubes before filling the engine. I have never had a smaller engine than .049 but the little bitty ones are probably super sensitive to castor clumps.

coxxoc Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:20 pm

yeah thanks Rusty for the feedback!...and I like the inline Dubro filter on your syringe, good move.
I read an article on fuel by Bill Schmidt a few months ago about fuel and he said he did not use
castor oil fuel and only 12 to 15% synthetic as well as about 7-8% nitro to keep the fires lit. You
will not varnish up if there is no castor present. Bill was talking about the cox 1/2A Texaco engine
which I`m now looking for? I wouldn`t break in an engine with this formula, use standard fuel for this.
Be advised that the formula above can also wipe out a main bearing in rainy conditions, but will give
you the longest engine runs you can get legally under normal conditions. You must use after run oil
after flying with this fuel. I strongly suggest using Shaler Risone brand engine oil additive obtained at
an auto supply store. Be sure to work it well into the main bearing right behind the prop drive washer.
I could talk about what prop to use and rpms but I better stop now before I get carried away Rusty.
If there`s anything you want to know about fuel of the cox 1/2A Texaco let me know as I have re-
searched it throughly! Flying

SuperDave Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:42 am

coxxoc:

Your's is the approch that we need on the forum. Pleased that you isolated the issue to fuel delivery problems.

You took the time and gave the effort needed to solve the problem and report back to others who may not have had the patience to persevere.

Nice detective work on your part! Kudos!

coxxoc Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:27 pm

Thanks Superdave,

The primary reason that people have so much trouble with the Cox reed valve engine is
because they are ignorant of what they are dealing with in the physics of its operation.
I remember reading an article in the early 80`s when many time grand champion
Bruce Norman, (remember him) refused to have anything to do with them because they
were so aggravating. He was not alone either then or now!

coxxoc Flying

John Goddard Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:38 am

On my pump I have a filter at both ends.
The Johnnie trick is...
To take them apart and put (stolen of course)several pieces of Senior
Management's tights or stockings in the filters as well.
Depending how much I fly in a session I usually have to
Unblock the pickup filter at least once.
Very Happy

coxxoc Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:25 am

That`s a good one John, I must try that one day?
coxxoc Flying

SuperDave Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:18 am

Legendary Alaskan bush pilot Bob Sheldon ALWAY personally filtered his own fuel before putting it in his plane.

Hmmmmmmm...................... Not a bad idea for us. Cool

Kim Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:21 am

SuperDave wrote:Legendary Alaskan bush pilot Bob Sheldon ALWAY personally filtered his own fuel before putting it in his plane.

Hmmmmmmm...................... Not a bad idea for us.

Agreed! And...Mr. Sheldon's book : "Wager with the Wind" is about the greatest aviation read of it's type ! Not a boring page in the whole thing!

It's probably been out of print for a while, but might turn up on Ebay or a used bookestore, and is also available for loan from "Kim's Postal Library" in return for postage both ways !!!!

Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!! Sheldo10

Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!! Sheldo10

Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!! Sheldo11

Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!! Sheldo12

Sorry for the hi-jack...couldn't help myself !

SuperDave Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:40 am

Not a hijack at all Kim for I too have the same book and have read it several times over the years.

If the book doesn't get a pilot's "juices folwing" I can't imagine what would. Biplane

coxxoc Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:08 am

There are a lot of 1/2A models flying.
These tips might be worth remembering lads.
An article has been circulating lately about the care and feeding of Cox 1/2A Texaco engines. It
was written by Norm Rosenstock several years ago and contains some good advice. However
nothing in the original article mentioned the importance of filtering the fuel for those little rascals.
Bill Schmidt is a strong advocate of fuel filtering, even each time you go to the flying field. So do
it. Put a coffee filter in a funnel and then add two folded Kleenexes. Pour the fuel through this
slowly, and I betcha you will have a happier Cox. The article did mention the problem with
exhaust gunk being sucked into the air intake and hampering the running efficiency. Marcy
Martin has this to say: "Regarding that article about Texaco 049's sucking exhaust residue into
the air intake, the solution offered, the use of spacers behind the engine, would only compound
the problem. Without the spacers the exhaust residue must pass over the top of the engine then
down the sides and back ap to the intake. With the spacers the residue goes right over the top of
the engine a straight down to the intake, a much easier path. Thousands of 049's have been run
without spacers. I would suggest that the author had some other situation that was relieved by
spacers." Another clue for a happy 049. How many of us have examined the screen of the air
intake on back of the engine?
If clogged it will restrict the air supply. Flying

"FAI rubber motors that are properly stored, correctly tied, well-lubed, properly broken in,
correctly sized, well-handled, inspected for flaws, and not abused will break on winding
less than 1% of the time, even under contest pressures."

pucara58 Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:01 am

coxxoc wrote:Thanks jnespappa and superdave for your feedback.

I finally got this little baby to run beautifully!...This is what I did to fix problem?
First I removed back plate and cleaned it throughly and I then attached a 6 inch length of
fuel line to the fuel line attach nib. I then screwed the standard needle valve into the back
plate to the fully closed position. I opened the nv 1 turn out and sucked on the 6 inch fuel line
with my mouth. This excercise gave me a vivid idea of just exactly what was happening
inside my engine when it is running. I then checked the reed valve for a perfect one way
check valve operation. It must check very positively when you blow on the reed retention
area and it must flow air very freely when you suck on it. Suck and blow very rapidly to
observe this action. The reed must not squeal when you blow it shut! My did so I replaced it.
My engine had a old copper reed in it so I replaced it with a new mylar reed and make sure
the reed is perfectly flat as viewed in reflective light.
Now I come to the good part, and found my real problem? what do yo think small particles of
dirt in the fuel do when they encounter the nv with its extremely small rate of flow capability.
All you do to fix this problem is strain your fuel 2 or 3 times through a coffee filter and funnel
into a 1/2 or 1 pint liquor bottle. Don`t use the cheap plastic ones because they are milky and
exhibit poor optical quality. The bottle must be clear glass and narrow, not round for good
viewing in the sunlight. After I filtered my fuel I held the bottle up to the sunlight and looked
for tendrils and flotsam swimming around in suspension. I was suprised at how much was in
the fuel. It is hard to get it perfectly clean at times. What you do is get it as clean as you can,
and then let it set (settle) for a day or two. This debris seems to thrive and actually grow in the fuel.
After I checked and cleaned engine and fuel I put engine back together and guess what? I got
my engine to run with only a few healthy flips. I also forgot to tell you I checked my glow head,
needle, battery, etc.
My conclusion: The smallest bit of dirt in the system will give you trouble like you can`t believe.
I`ve seen guys grinding away with the starter or flipping forever. All this does is wear out the
engine or your fingers.

**944_Jim** Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:02 pm

Hi P-58,
I see this is your first post. Please take a moment to introduce yourself. We love to welcome new members, and learn what draws them to these remarkable little engines.

Glad to have you here!

706jim Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:23 pm

I love this little engine and spent quite a bit of time flying it free flight on a Guillow's Super Cub 95. I ran my engines without the spring starter as I just think it looks cleaner and isn't really needed. Hand flipping only as electric starters were not really used much in 1972. Of course, half the time the Pee Wee started backwards. At first I think I turned the fuel off with the needle valve, but eventually just put the palm of my hand into the spinning propeller. The Pee Wee is actually pretty gutless torque wise and the blades present a smooth surface when running backwards. At the time I was a musician playing six nights a week so wouldn't have done this if there was any serious risk to my hands.
Thought I'd mention this as there was a recent discussion regarding the use of and weight of the spring starter.

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Having trouble starting my pee wee .020 Help!!!