Re: Vintage Cox Tee Dee .049 speed plane - nice ebay

Ken Cook Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:18 am

Monoline was the first control line. I've used some old stuff but the newer stuff is much better. Stanzel corporation made monoline units back in the 50's. This is similar to what I've used and it's not very good and more than likely unacceptable to use on modern equipment. Newer monoline handles utilize a D shape, the curved section of the D has teeth like a gear. Obviously your hand grips onto the vertical portion of the D and directly in the center of the D on the curver portion is a part which is perpendicular to the vertical leg.This part houses a pinion gear which twists one direction when moved up and the opposing direction when moved down. Usually the model has a hatch which is removed and this is where the connection is made to the plane, a similar connector is used on the handle end. The button is circular with a groove around it's circumference in which the wire is wrapped and twisted and soldered. With monoline, the entire flying cable is twisting. These items are precision made and not commercially available. This is one reason as to why speed flying is so limited in my opinion.

The main reason for this single line is due to drag, two lines generate a amazing amount of drag. In addition, line connectors, eyelets also create further drag. Monoline cancels this out of the equation AND it utilizes solid lines which are thinner even creating less drag vs a cable. Even having the needle valve sticking out is not good as it too is generating drag. The speed flyer in my club always looks at my stuff and smiles and says " You know I could probably improve your stuff at least another 30%".

Bob's plane is designed to fly opposite of what 98% of what most people fly. The majority of pilots fly counterclockwise and Bob's plane is setup to fly clockwise . This keeps the plane from torque rolling in. Seeing that Bob's plane and mine have 2 wheel gear, it's less likely occurring with 2 wheel gear vs a single leg. Now I have flown some pretty big stuff and I've had a few come in on me but it's not as likely as one would think. If your properly trained to fly one of these, you know how to take it off. You don't just have the plane released and expect it to take off. It will roll in so fast, you will lose line tension and you will have a Cox spinner planted into your forehead. A plane setup to fly clockwise needs NO tip weight whereas a clockwise flyer as I've made mine requires a fair amount. This causes funny business as the plane until up to complete speed is flying tip low which is not very good. You want the plane out on the lines and inline with your flying lines.

rsv1cox Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:15 am

"Usually the model has a hatch which is removed and this is where the connection is made to the plane, a similar connector is used on the handle end. The button is circular with a groove around it's circumference in which the wire is wrapped and twisted and soldered. With monoline, the entire flying cable is twisting. These items are precision made and not commercially available."

Thanks Ken. That is the part that is confusing to me. How the monoline is connected to the airplane. In mine, there is a ball off the music wire (previous photo above) and that's it. The attaching line must connect onto that ball somehow and provide for a twisting motion.

I was struck by your yelow airplane. "That's just like mine" I thought, but there are significant differences outside your modifications. One is the fuselage separation, looks like your's the whole top section is removable, mine only partial terminating just in front of the tail section.

I do like that yellow. Plants a seed. I tried to duplicate your photos in presentation. What's going between your landing gear?

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Ken Cook Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:07 am

I made many changes on my model from when it was originally made. As I mentioned, it was wrecked one time which I had to rebuild the entire top. The opening underneath looked just like yours. I opened it up which I then coated with epoxy which has since yellowed. I also had a issue in which the top block ripped out the plywood which contained the nut inside and the top block almost came off. I then drilled all the way through the landing gear and installed a blind nut which I had to get a long screw all the way through. Now that I have a screw all the way through the interior of the fuse, I made a tank which this screw went through. I drilled a hole and soldered tubing through the tank and the screw was inside of the tubing. This held the tank in place as well.

MauricioB Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:36 am

Thanks Ken for the explanation. I'm trying to figure out how to drive the model airplane with just one cable.
I guess from your description.
When I did UControl in my beginnings, it was with two cables, so I didn't know about this way of commanding a model.
I fully understand that one line will generate less resistance than two, so for that fundamental reason this was started.
Do you have photos of a monoline handle? If I'm being pushy, excuse me, but I like to learn from A to Z and not leave loose ends.
Thank you!

rsv1cox Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:07 am

Same here Mauricio, I still don't understand how the mono's cables are attached and provide for a twisting action. Anyone got a photo?

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I would like to construct one and try it out.

aspeed Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:08 am

MauricioB wrote:Thanks Ken for the explanation. I'm trying to figure out how to drive the model airplane with just one cable.
I guess from your description.
When I did UControl in my beginnings, it was with two cables, so I didn't know about this way of commanding a model.
I fully understand that one line will generate less resistance than two, so for that fundamental reason this was started.
Do you have photos of a monoline handle? If I'm being pushy, excuse me, but I like to learn from A to Z and not leave loose ends.
Thank you!

Here is a pic of mine on the top. The twisted wire is like the old 'tops' that you would pump up and down to spin. The thimble in the middle is what is used to control the up and down as you go upwind and downwind. Pull the thimble towards your hand for up and towards the plane for down. It is kind of hard to fly on a windy day and it barely can hold level flight. Mine would only be strong enough for a .15 or maybe a .29 motor. (1/2A,

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A Speed or B Speed)

rsv1cox Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:12 am

Great photo, I saved it.

So how does this

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Connect to this:

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aspeed Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:17 am

Here is the monoline unit on the plane. A couple loops of slightly smaller solid wire wrapped through the horn and on to the connector button. There is a long slot in the handle tubing which the line goes into and then it is wrapped with copper wire so it does not pop out.

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gkamysz Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:08 pm

To be fair, Ebay shipping estimates are not wrong, but you don't see what size box the seller entered. If they estimated a much larger box than was used in the end, the quoted rate was much higher. The surcharges and rates just keep increasing.

I have some intention to try 1/2A Proto this year (time to get building). Knowing nothing about CL flying or construction (other than something I cobbled together and flew a few times 30 years ago) it's been challenging to find information. There is an active club close enough to visit, though. Alex Valishev and Bill Hughes are members. I think Bill flies the old twisty rod monoline.

Ken Cook Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:17 pm

Alex was very helpful to me years ago when I needed parts for my Cyclon. He provided me with several parts and even some that I needed to fabricate. Bill also provided me with some CZ .049 parts and speed stuff. It's nice to have fellows like this in the hobby.

Ken Cook Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:23 pm

Alan, when I see your handles it reminds me of Dan Banjock's stuff. He has all of those handles and in used condition as you pictured. His monoline handle is practically identical and I couldn't get the hang of it. He does pretty well with it. He has a .15 sized plane which he brings out now and again to show us how it's done.

aspeed Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:24 pm

Yes, Dan is the man. Flew Clown racer and Fox LA .25 with him at Brodak and seen him at other ventures. Very interesting guy. Got the rules here for 1/2A Proto and most of the other speed events. Page 13 https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Control%20Line%20Speed%202022-2023.pdf

rsv1cox Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:21 am

What you use when you have no hand-writing talent for script or printing. Got to play with the font a little more.

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and I could go all Jambalaya

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I just noticed the vertical stab offset, seems to be going the wrong way.

Ken Cook Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:01 am

Bob, I mentioned this above, your plane flies the opposite direction and it flies clockwise vs the normal counterclockwise.Therefore, your rudder is correct but your rudder shouldn't have any offset in it all. Tip weight, engine offset, rudder offset and line rake are not needed when flying clockwise. Any of my mentioning is causing the plane to yaw and produce drag. One thing very important with a speed model is the way it flies in relation to the horizon. If it's flying nose high, it's also causing drag.

rsv1cox Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:05 am

Ken Cook wrote:Bob, I mentioned this above, your plane flies the opposite direction and it flies clockwise vs the normal counterclockwise.Therefore, your rudder is correct but your rudder shouldn't have any offset in it all. Tip weight, engine offset, rudder offset and line rake are not needed when flying clockwise. Any of my mentioning is causing the plane to yaw and produce drag. One thing very important with a speed model is the way it flies in relation to the horizon. If it's flying nose high, it's also causing drag.

Thanks Ken. Above me. The control line exits to the left (normal) indicating a counter-clockwise rotation? Unless you flip it over and fly upside down. ?

Old guys need a picture...... Smile

GallopingGhostler Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:11 am

Ken, curious, on a speed model, wouldn't one just use tip weight and no rudder offset for a counter rotating model? Given the high rotational velocity, wouldn't rudder offset create drag? Huh...

(Sorry, I got zero experience with these. Embarassed

)

Ken Cook Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:13 am

Bob, I stand corrected, your model does fly counter clockwise. I think in one of the above pictures, I confused the up and down due to the white, my apologies. However, it's not uncommon for a speed plane to have engine inset rather than offset OR some inset of rudder so that it doesn't yaw out too far. This is something I do on my clown racers. I say this a lot however no one seems to understand. Line tension is generated by speed not engine offset or rudder offset. A combat wing has no rudder typically. So you have to ask yourself why does it stay out on the lines. SPEED! When you use these methods, you cut down the speed and you lose even further line tension. These practices don't keep a airplane from crashing. The majority of the time a plane is losing line tension is due to a improperly built wing that has a twist in it or other control surfaces. Even a stab with a little bit of tilt is going to cause issues. Speed planes don't fly inverted so this isn't a issue.

rsv1cox Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:31 am

Ken Cook wrote:Bob, I stand corrected, your model does fly counter clockwise. I think in one of the above pictures, I confused the up and down due to the white, my apologies. However, it's not uncommon for a speed plane to have engine inset rather than offset OR some inset of rudder so that it doesn't yaw out too far. This is something I do on my clown racers. I say this a lot however no one seems to understand. Line tension is generated by speed not engine offset or rudder offset. A combat wing has no rudder typically. So you have to ask yourself why does it stay out on the lines. SPEED! When you use these methods, you cut down the speed and you lose even further line tension. These practices don't keep a airplane from crashing. The majority of the time a plane is losing line tension is due to a improperly built wing that has a twist in it or other control surfaces. Even a stab with a little bit of tilt is going to cause issues. Speed planes don't fly inverted so this isn't a issue.

I learned long ago - Never question Ken! Smile

I'm one for many.

Thanks Ken, I have learned more from you (along with many others here) than I have anyone else.

rsv1cox Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:46 am

Maybe script............

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Feeling pretty good this morning. Got a cough out of the RX-7 - Starting fluid in the intake, fuel line not attached. First one in 15 years. Shows promise. Also got lights.

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rdw777 Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:24 pm

Enjoying watching this plane Bob and the input from those that know something about this sort of thing…. Very much a special niche in the model airplane world…. I run into these canopies every once in while on the bay…. Thought they would go really well with your plane but after re-looking them up they are expensive and shipping probably would make it cost prohibitive…I think these were originally intended for the Quickie 100 that was being sold a year or two ago….

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/124077596946?hash=item1ce399e112:g:zHIAAOSw3DtgjQqB&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoB16P5zbCVkBBBmA%2BKV6ZlRYXqMRAOgNWKv%2BUN29gKiBXRs3QKCVgXiEkelIXNuFwWgWzu6XkdBWQjARfaivGuAFKmWPnBUbVKvedBPaYOorIzlSq1ua5vBgcXTZzY5zFM4cY6PCcb85%2FDXzu8AxQ790j31rASVpPD5jUMCanCDaYBUTTwV24QAFXmdbHHUgOZwxjd03qFPE8I42O6HdKQY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-DOxu7RYQ

rsv1cox Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:40 pm

Thanks Robert, they are truely beautiful and coming from Greece I can understand the shipping.

But, I'm going to stay with this canopy if for no other reason than it fit's the glue lifted paint spots. More and more I'm leaning toward keeping it mostly in "as found" condition.

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rsv1cox Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:36 am

Added the canopy and fuel line this morning. I had to heat the canopy and compress it as it was way too wide. Secured with three drops of 560 canopy cement applied on the previous spots.

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Dries clear. Removable if I decide to paint it.

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Successfully resisted the urge to include red or yellow pilot guys.

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Added a missing fuel line. Currious, it has two feed options??? Maybe two stage tank, one for short flights the other for longer maybe. One went to the rear of the tank the other about an inch in. Used the longer one. Castor/fuel residue came out with the wire. Will have to remove and clean the tank if I decide to run it.

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rdw777 Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:47 am

I like the look of the canopy Bob…. Looks aggressive!! …. The whole airplane looks “strictly business “!!!!

balogh Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:57 am

rdw777 wrote:Enjoying watching this plane Bob and the input from those that know something about this sort of thing…. Very much a special niche in the model airplane world…. I run into these canopies every once in while on the bay…. Thought they would go really well with your plane but after re-looking them up they are expensive and shipping probably would make it cost prohibitive…I think these were originally intended for the Quickie 100 that was being sold a year or two ago….

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124077596946?hash=item1ce399e112:g:zHIAAOSw3DtgjQqB&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoB16P5zbCVkBBBmA%2BKV6ZlRYXqMRAOgNWKv%2BUN29gKiBXRs3QKCVgXiEkelIXNuFwWgWzu6XkdBWQjARfaivGuAFKmWPnBUbVKvedBPaYOorIzlSq1ua5vBgcXTZzY5zFM4cY6PCcb85%2FDXzu8AxQ790j31rASVpPD5jUMCanCDaYBUTTwV24QAFXmdbHHUgOZwxjd03qFPE8I42O6HdKQY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-DOxu7RYQ

Indeed these canopies are sold by CEF member kazaklisglider aka Tasos of Geece from whom I bought my Quickie 100 RC model

rsv1cox Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:53 am

Found a home, for the short term anyway.

Did the hangar in black as opposed to my usual natural or stained. Thought the black would compliment the white. Functional and secure, nothing elaborate.

Most of these wall mounts are recovered or restored ecomony ebay buys, but a couple came from flea markets compliments of my son.

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