OK Brodak P-40b thread cuz it is time to STOP hi-jacking Rusty

[fredvon4]

Rusty, Ken, and I have gone way afar---- about a lot of Brodak ARF discussion in Rusty's Big Box arrived thread, where a friend of his gifted him a new Brodak P-40 ARF

Earlier this year I got a TF Nobler ARF and while searching for all the fixes. I found a lot of threads that one of the better ARFs ever sold was the Brodak Flying Tiger P40 so ..... noting the Brodak "out of stock" ** BUT call us ****cuz we really do have them... only to get frustrated with the phone tag at Brodak.

In conversation on the phone with Randy Smith, I related my frustration, and he said he had several-- what color?... SO, $189 later I got a Grey version sent to me by Randy at PA

I am well behind Rusty on my adapting, build, assembly and I have decided to try to photo document my meager efforts to set one of these ARFs up

Steve Helmick, on Stunt hanger, has a well documented thread about adding diheaderal to the wing.
Since I am NOT a PAMPA stunt pattern flyier, I am NOT taking his good advice.... but his reasoning is sound for this plane to be a top finisher in true competition

I hate (really I do) to keep bashing Brodak

BUT the $9.99 Vacuum formed canopy*, I ordered is a true POS that I will NOT be using...yes it is the right part and sizes
But it is thick, heavy, no way at all to effectively paint the canopy support structure molded inside the clear plastic, and it is not very clear at all. Terrible part

* if you followed Rusty"s thread I mentioned that I liked the Box art (with clear canopy) better than the current Balsa canopy version I got.

Any how... I will spend the rest of today clearing a build/assy area and start photo documenting the process tomorrow

[roddie]

I'm sure you'll do a great job Phred! Maybe you could alternately paint (spray or brush) the inside of the canopy a silver/blue? That'd probably look "dope".. (a young kid I work with uses that term for "really good"! )

[Ken Cook]

Fred, if your not getting the satisfaction demand to speak to John. Brodak's especially within 2 months prior to the Fly In is not going to work real well for you. The hobby shop for John is a hobby. This is not something he does for a living. He's into dozens of things, real estate, grocery stores, food establishments, etc. It's nice to know we have a terrific resource there. The ARF's were a huge problem. They sat for months in Sea boxes waiting to come here. There were times that he couldn't answer as to when they were going to be delivered due to tariff issues. The run around as you mentioned could've certainly been a part of this issue. Randy just could've had old stock while Brodak sold out early on. I was a Brodak dealer at one time and I can attest to the way these were delivered around the states. I was purchasing sometimes up to $2000 at a time of specific ARF's. There were limits at times as to how many one dealer could purchase because they were spread thin.

[fredvon4]

This ARF P-40b while it did come from Randy Smiths stock, I know Brodak is the real source.

I would say side by side with the TF Nobler ARF---

The Brodak P-40b ARF is well done and most of the common ARF complaints have been addressed very well

1. The nose on mine is solid, relatively strong hard wood beams that look to be well glued and keyed
2. The Bell Crank is suspended, and the lead outs have good, properly swaged terminations
3. Critical looking at the covering it is a better job than I could do, has adequate overlaps, and the effort needed to seal potential problem areas is not that bad.

The Tower sourced Top Flite Nobler has basically is NOT usable until each of these areas is fixed

Ken's observation about the Over seas production WOEs--- seems to be repeating... the current run of a lot of ARC/ARFs are not going to make the predicted/expected June/Jul/Aug arrival ----and it seems maybe until the end of the year before we can get a new version of these models... I am on a list for the new version SV-11

Things in the political realm frustrate me because if I mention my thoughts we can rapidly devolve into a crap debate that wander afar from the problem

BUT here goes any way

I wonder to myself is there is any true problems with the American company order as relates to product completions, sources of supply, and shipping....

OR are there currently a bunch of BS political crapolla happening because of Trade agreements being confused By our Administration and the Saber rattling with N. Korea

Way above my pay grade (currently E-0)

[fredvon4]

I want to update this a bit as I have a little (very little ) inside info

My above notions about Trump/Korea/China trade is probably not the reason for many delays of (specifically) new ARF/ARC to Brodak and other suppliers

In this case...John Brodak specifically asked the producer--- Back in June, to keep making enough to fill and ENTIRE container...
What I know is:
A full 40' sea land container full to the doors is on the way to LA sea Port and overland delivery to PA is imminent,(next 2 weeks)

What I seriously suggest- for any who have some desire for a ARC or ARF...both IC or electric...Call Brodak or Randy Smith and get on a waiting list

Many of these much better and further refined ARC/ARFs are low volume and highly sought after...way back in 2007 the few SV 11s sold out in one week

This new batch has had a 17 month wait from redesign, corrections, prototype shipped, approve of changes, contract, upgrades, production, shipping, to delivery

Unlike a Top Flite Nobler many of John Brodaks ARF/ARCs have under gone a lot of serious upgrades to fix owner concerns

yes Virginia , I know a "real" modeler BUILDS his/her own airplane

BUT there is a lot of us aged guys who simply cannot build as light or as straight a wing as most of these ARF/ARC are sold

Yes Virginia...You do NOT get any appearance points for flying a Vector 40 ARF in the Walker Cup Nats competition

On the other hand... I am hoping the SV -11 and my precision Magnum .52 stunt engine is my personal fleet best combo....

Yes Virginia...I know you bust my chops a lot... The plane deserves a Ro-Jet .61...send me $400 and I will consider getting one, and then the $60 pipe, and then the $45 prop.... simple minded girl

I hope some few of you appreciate some of my snide humor

Roundy roundy Fred

[Ken Cook]

Your still buying a POS. Just build the kit and you'll be a lot happier. The quality of EVERYTHING in the kit is superior to the ARF and the design is even better. Your also in control of the covering which by the way they still haven't resolved and it comes off in 10 flights.

[fredvon4]

Well it is 1 pm-ish and I have stewed over Ken's note for most of my Sunday morning

Initially I was very hurt... BUT--- I think I know Ken, and I know he has experience and strong opinions-- that I respect

I want to respond this way...
part as MY excuse,
and part, to justify any other modelers choices

When I was pre MC accident healthy and physically sound I did have, and to some extent still do have, same opinion as Ken Cook and many other builder/ modelers...

NOTHING can be better than scratch or kit built...and I fully believe this is always going to be true

I also have very strong opinions on COMPETING with a model someone else built

Also --who can deny that taking wood, glue, and a plan...making a miniature model the runs, floats, flys is not just pure satisfaction and FUN!

OTOH...there are a lot of good enough reasons in my mind to play ARF/ARC/RTF

In my case... post MC accident... I have three wing sets here built up, that I will never put in a fuselage.. too screwy

The ARF TF Nobler my wife got while I was infirm... B ABSOLUTELY A POS as Ken sez..true!
-----Covering is real bad---BUT! That damned China 13 cent per hour wage WING is lighter and straighter than I (me) can build

The Brodak P-40 is the same... Yes there is help needed to make the covering acceptable ---BUT, again the Wing is actually a solid, light, and straight assembly...IMPRESSED

I got a very well used SIG Primary Force ARF.. oil soaked.. working on restoring... BUT again...the WING is better than I (me) can hand make

So bottom line FOR ME!

I have three examples of China built wings-- that while the covering is universally inferior... the construction is well above my capability for light, and straight...

I have conversed with both John B and Randy S and I tend to believe it when they say they changed and changed the ARF/ARC specs on each new iteration to try and remedy customer concerns

BUT as Ken sez ---and I totally agree...If you want to COMPETE with a Vector 40/60, SV -11, SV -22 or any other Brodak ARF/ARC...the kit is superior in every way

I would however challenge any "typical" kit builder to make the Ring master S-1 any better or lighter than the Brodak ARF

Yes Virginia... long time scratch and kit builders can do that easy....

But IMO a occasional kit builder with no on hand supply of perfect wood... Doubtful IMO...
The several Brodak RM ARFs I have seen are very good value despite the off set trim covering

AND IF you can do a decent job of building and covering... THE KIT IS SUPERIOR in every way

[Ken Cook]

My response has nothing to do with competition. If you want a pos buy it. I fly with guys in my club who are in their mid and late 80's and they build. Some of them still fly on a regular basis. I'm not trying to be hurtful or demeaning but the bottom line is that these things are like fishing lures. Pilots bite on them and spend more time horsing around with them than the rest of us that kit builds. Your not in control of the important factors that make the plane fly correctly. To repair these issues takes as long as it does to build the kit. The hardware is very poor not to mention weak.

        I was guilty of it myself initially. However, between my son and I we fly more than several pilots combined and the problems arose much quicker between us. The quality is lacking period. Others may think it's wonderful and I'm not going to alter their thinking, I can only say that I don't take anyone's word on what it being improved. While one thing is improved on, another issue begins to lack.  I feel the ARF/ARC  planes have impacted our club in a very negative way.

        Fred, the Ringmaster doesn't need to be light to fly well. Over 250 thousand of them have proved that point over the past 50 years. Light isn't everything a light plane doesn't do well in the wind. I don't fixate weight on a plane that I just beat around with and I don't know what a Brodak Ring weighs. The Ring my son just built is 23 oz's. Exactly 30 ounces AUW. Have you seen one of these Brodak Ring's crash? You have one crash in them. My Ring is still flying after 35 years and I can't tell you how many crashes it has undergone.

It's a very simple plane to build, your not going to convince me in regards to cost vs durability, overall quality, finish etc. There's $20 of balsa in the plane.

[fredvon4]

Ken sir...I truly do appreciate your POV

I think I did a fair job in my post to point out at lease 4 times maybe 5 that scratch or kit building is superior in every way and supported your assertion positively

maybe I am getting a tad thin skinned...

I doubt you mean too ---but I keep reading "fred you are stupid"

No matter... I am driving on to have fun with 3 ARFs and my smallish fleet of 7 kit build airplanes

If and when the TF Nobler / or Brodak P40 or Brodak SV 11 meets a dramatic and flaming hole in the ground I will giggle as I always do...retrieve the engine and any other usable stuff...grin and proclaim as I walk to my car...that BUTT head  great guy  Ken was right!

Peace brother, I do know where you are coming from and agree

[Ken Cook]

Fred, in NO way do I read in my post suggesting that your stupid. Show me where I stated that. That wasn't my intent nor was it ever. I'm glad your happy with your purchase, the glitter wore off real quick for me. I spent a lot of money on them only to be dissatisfied on my levels. Others may feel differently, and that's absolutely fine.

[Ken Cook]

Whenever a post is made, the subject is a topic for debate. Looking at the post and seeing that someone kindly offered me a negative red makes me laugh. I was a part of flying prototypes of these planes and offering credible advice. Much of the advice was neglected and the higher ups offered a product with many problems that they felt were not going to be a issue until they became issues. Once again, those in business think we the consumers are blind. In no way did I post ANYTHING that wasn't credible. The problem here is that while I'm offering positive facts others get butt hurt over that. Seeing that no one else on here offered a opinion or a post, I added my very factual comments in regards to a product. Fred praised the product in regards to how straight and light the product is, I found that to be just the opposite. In addition, I was also a dealer of these products, try doing that and hearing every complaint that comes down the pike and keep a level head. The discussion of changes at hand here are no different than those that were encountered from the early designs. It's entirely governed by $$$$$$$. So those that want the ARF/ARC buy away. Those that kit build, do the same.

[fredvon4]

Ken...I freely admit I got my tender feeling twisted MOSTLY due to the frustration of already owning one or more ARFs  and really wanting the SV-11

I did not hit the red on you and never would

I respect and appreciate the time you take to offer your opinions and advice
You personally have been a good sounding board and you steered me many times since 2012 to many great resources, saving me much time, cash, and frustration

I have been on a waiting list for a SV-11 for some time and already bought a good engine. I keep pestering Brodak and Randy for information

Hearing that my commitment for a $200 ARF is a POS frustrated me and made me defensive

Sorry, I really am
Ken Cook is a good guy who is only trying to keep me or others from a costly mistake in his opinion. And experienced based opinion

[getback]

After reading in this discussion about ARF planes and the fact with age and life's little problems that come with it i understand were Fred is coming from , i at one time thought i could build a decent straight plane and now have more doubts than ever , with numb fingers and pain in my neck ! Hip , Back just getting my ass to the table that's covered with dust is a task!! Thats a lot of cash to put out and hear from friends that it NOT what you think it is is discouraging! Greenie for you Fred for not opting out of the forum over a disagreement !

[Ken Cook]

Fred, of the ARF's available, the SV-11 is going to be the best. I had two of the first versions left, keeping one for myself and just sold the other. I can say it offered a lot more. These were difficult to obtain because they had a very small run compared to the others.   The SV-11  was offered in a different manner due to those responsible for it's being. They were also involved with the Legacy.  The early version while it had it's leadouts entirely different from traditional ARF style still looked questionable to me. Would I fly it as is? Yes, because these things are not an easy remedy to replace. Randy also had input into this. The P-40 does very well in my club and the second version I think certainly outweighs the earlier. Two months ago I just witnessed a expert flyer lose a new P-40 due to the cable jamming. These planes are used frequently for profile stunt. I currently fly one myself, I can just say that it did still require some wing tweaking. Not an issue and only a issue if one can't resolve it. I still find the ARF to be tailheavy a bit and it can get a little hairy when the power cuts as one enters the windy side. Once again, easily resolved through several methods.

      The Moon Brothers Nobler was a very very fine offering. It was limited and they were built by the same manufacturers. It was covered with Phil Cartier's SLC. These were shipped with John's order in the same containers.   In addition, the cost was very reflective of the quality. Back when you could buy the Top Flite version for under $100 this Nobler was $200+. With that large of a expense, one could easily build the kit which was my point initially.  I do get it, not all want to build nor

             While the topic was in reference to the ARF/ARC, it wasn't meant to be a disagreement. I in no way wanted to sound as though Fred was as he mentioned stupid or anyone for that matter. As Fred mentioned it was more to the point that one shouldn't invest a lot of $$$ into something and have your hopes stripped out from under you.  If your having fun with it, that's all that matters. If one purchases one of these planes, buyer beware that your not without issue. Many consumers/modelers feel that if one buys something, it has to work. I was stating a point that these things don't come with instant gratification.

[fredvon4]

I really do appreciate everyones point of view and apologize that I never seem to see PMs to me. For some reason the e-mail notice was, or is, not working through my ISP so some of my PM responses today may be a bit dated

Quite frankly the only reason I have the TF nobler ARF is wife thought she was doing me a good thing when I was sick. I had always wanted a Nobler...nostalgia thing ....but not keen of an inverted engine full fuselage with flaps at by building and flying skill level...

I personally would NOT have bought the TF ARF---- a lot---- BECAUSE of Ken and a lot of similarly minded folks who went before me, are all been there done that and it is generally a POS... better to just build a good kit...there are many

On the other hand... I deliberately sought out the Brodak P-40 ARF because so many had posted very positive comments ---with the usual -- Beware, It Is an ARF! -----and THEY all have about the same problem areas.... poor lead out terminations, flimsy horns and push rods, crummy hinges, poor glue, weak motor crutch area, junk fuel tank, many areas oil can get to the wood, and film lift off problems. I got the impression most of these issues were not THAT hard to fix

Since I managed to morph my own thread in to a ARF or BUILD argument/discussion/debate...I note that there are several different airplane modelers and expected usage and capabilities. Lots of sub categories...say some one is real jazzed by war birds ...some will have the skills to build and finish and may even extend the concept to true scale and model an actual airplane down to the same number of real rivets

The other end of the spectrum might be a pretty good looking RTF or ARF profile that sort of looks like a real airplane

I must absolutely agree the thoughts and opinions of Ken and others is worthy of consideration in the decision

Part of my logic is my own skill level, total hanger fleet and frequency any one model might get flown

Thus...No violent high "G" maneuvers are in my flight plan
No long full pattern flights either
Most models might see 4 to 5 flights a year
I do plane to or have correct the bigger problems with the sub par ARF

I am not really trying to justify my personal purchase decisions

BUT I am happy with the few ARfs I have and since Ken added his thoughts on the SV 11 I am back to impatiently waiting on the shipment... right now it is a $200 crap shoot

Over the years with several ARF models the quality has been all over the map...yes generally not GREAT but three guys love it right our of the box and one guy got one that did not even have a Bell Crank installed...

[Sponsored content]