Lookin' for advice on Sig Twister

Mark Boesen wrote:Opinions are like elbows, pretty much everybody's got a couple...

I would suggest a Skyray or Flight Streak (RTF?) something you can get together quickly and learn to fly stunt as you're building the Twister, see next sentence.

I've scanned (took pics with phone) of the Ted Fancher artical from '87 for you and anybody else that might want it, but not sure how to up load that many pics?

As far as engine, i would go FP over a Fox, unless you already have one and it's a good runner.

Flight Streak ARF been looking at one of those. As far as the FP I have a later model FP (ABN) but it's in need of a piston/sleeve set and speaking of that, you wouldn't know where I can lay my hands on a set? It's been heck trying to find one, even for the tower 40. (Bandit)

hmm....maybe

I have the complete "Francherized Twister" plans and articals in several PDF's. I can email them to you if you would like. I'd use the Tower 40, OS 40FP, or OS 40LA. All these motors can be found on ebay. I think you could even use an OS 46LA. Any of these engines would be better on this plan than a Fox 35, just my opinion, don't come after me Fox guys.

As Mark said, the Flight Streak ARF would be a great first big boy plane and they fly great right out of the box, so to speak. I just maidened a Flight Streak ARF and it didn't really need anything, seemed to do everything I asked it to do the first flight.

Mark Boesen wrote:hmm....maybe

LOL ok looks like you have a couple of them, those suckers are getting hard to find. What ya asking for one of them btw?
That is if you are willing to part with one. (Bandit)

duke.johnson wrote:I have the complete "Francherized Twister" plans and articals in several PDF's.  I can email them to you if you would like.  I'd use the Tower 40, OS 40FP, or OS 40LA. All these motors can be found on ebay.  I think you could even use an OS 46LA.  Any of these engines would be better on this plan than a Fox 35, just my opinion, don't come after me Fox guys.

As Mark said, the Flight Streak ARF would be a great first big boy plane and they fly great right out of the box, so to speak.  I just maidened a Flight Streak ARF and it didn't really need anything, seemed to do everything I asked it to do the first flight.

Hi Duke,

I'd like a copy as well, compared to a cheesy scanner of 15 years ago, a modern camera photo is not too bad, but not too great either...considering these are photo of copies :^(...

PM me with your email and I'll send you the PDF

Bandit, I did the very same thing about 5 years ago. A jr. size streak was the biggest plane I had flown.I decided to finish my S1A Ringmaster and tune up the three fox engines I had. Thats when the learning curve kicked in. I may get stomped on for this, but here goes. Fox 35's dont run right as supplied by the factory. Get up with Randy Smith and get a needle valve, a supply of thunderbolt RC plugs and some extra gaskets. As far as fuel goes, I like 10% nitro with 26% oil, mostly castor. With a good collet NVA, an extra head gasket, and the Thunderbolt plug it should four stroke when its level and two stroke when you point the nose up. When you bring it back level it should calm right back down to a four stroke. When they are right I prefer them over a more modern engine, and to me its easyer to fly and learn stunts. To me the McCoy redhead is a better running engine, but the fox is tougher.
Phil

Your pretty much correct, to me its a case of leaning to fly stunt or learning how to deal with a Fox. Anything can be made to work well, for bolt up and go, you can't beat a modern engine, for classic 2-4-2 "Nothing runs like a Fox".

I'm going to go on and rebuild my old 40FP and run it and get a fox 35 and set it up "get a hemi kit head gaskets to drop the compression a little needles and such" while I run the FP. I would like to get a new one but since fox has ceased production that's kinda hard to do. I think I'm going to go with marks advice and grab a flight streak so I can get in the air quicker. so I can take my time on the twister. (Bandit)

The streak is a great plane, I think you will love it. For your first 35 size plane I think you will like either one. However, I wouldnt use the fp40 on it. My son has a streak with a OS 35, I think FP. Its too fast for learning on. He has splattered several times and I have repaired it again for the last time. He make fun of mine for being slow, but I can think about setting up for the stunt I'm trying to learn, where to go in, where to come out, whats for supper, etc. My sons trying to hold on and his stunts are hail mary attempts usually yielding a plattered plane again. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I would get the Fox set up first off.
Phil

Hi Phil, what prop were u using?

Bandit, I agree with the advice on starting something besides the Fox, but in your case if your choice is only a 40fp and a Fox, the 40 is way too much power. Wayne's ARF Streak is really fast with an LA 25. If you like I'll send you a 25. It's an OS, but not an fp or LA. I'll go check in the shop tonight. If you want it, PM me with your address. I'll include the muffler with it.

All that being said, Ron gave me a 1958 model Fox Stunt 35. I'd never seen a Fox before and I bolted it up and flew it just fine. It does take some tank adjusting and finding the needle setting and prop for a 4-2 break, but even completely clueless, I got it without too much trouble. If you know you're going to use a Fox there are some building mods that will prolong the life of the plane and make the engine run better.
Rusty

RknRusty wrote:Bandit, I agree with the advice on starting something besides the Fox, but in your case if your choice is only a 40fp and a Fox, the 40 is way too much power. Wayne's ARF Streak is really fast with an LA 25. If you like I'll send you a 25. It's an OS, but not an fp or LA. I'll go check in the shop tonight. If you want it, PM me with your address. I'll include the muffler with it.

All that being said, Ron gave me a 1958 model Fox Stunt 35. I'd never seen a Fox before and I bolted it up and flew it just fine. It does take some tank adjusting and finding the needle setting and prop for a 4-2 break, but even completely clueless, I got it without too much trouble. If you know you're going to use a Fox there are some building mods that will prolong the life of the plane and make the engine run better.
Rusty

Thank you! and you are probably referring the to older loop charged 25 before the FP series came out around the 70's vintage.
Anyway thanks any help is greatly appreciated. the flight streak does look light. PM being sent.
BTW the FP is for the twister not the streak. (Bandit)

TDbandit wrote:...Thank you! and you are probably referring the to older loop charged 25 before the FP series came out around the 70's vintage.
Anyway thanks any help is greatly appreciated. the flight streak does look light. PM being sent.
BTW the FP is for the twister not the streak. (Bandit)

Yes, that's the one. Anyway you'll need a 25 or two for your venture into the old "35 sized" designs.
Rusty

"Nods" I looked on towers site and noticed that they are not expecting any more streaks till April
Thanks for all the help so far guys really appreciate it. (Bandit)

You've gotten a lot of good info here, Bandit.
One thing to know about the modern engines is that the 10x6 prop is not your friend. For a Fox 35, the 10x6 is it, for a modern engine a 10 or 11x4 is where one would start.

Next is the importance of fuel for each type engine. The Fox and McCoy it seems you know need a lot of oil, I use 25% castor on OS 35S engines and should work on the FP's and LA's too, 29% on McCoys and Foxes because they need the lube and the heat transfer and castor does it best. Some use slightly less and get away with it fine, i wouldn't go less than 25% all castor with the old bushed engines.

Glow plugs i use are Thunderbolt Four Stroke, and hot idle bar, depending on how the engine likes them.

Profiles shake a lot so make the nose very solid, use slow epoxy. Make sure you have good, hard rock maple mounts and if you can find some aftermarket, order them as long as you can. Cut the fuselage so as to have them meet the wing cutout. Check the doublers in the kit, if you think it's hinky, cheap ply, buying some good 1/16th marine ply would be worth it for a replacement. Epoxy it all together, sand flat, then slow epoxy the doublers on with plenty of weight to keep it solid until it cures. (I bury all of my mounting hardware in the rock maple mounts including the tank mounts so nothing can be seen outside of the doublers, but it's a technique. Bolts on the outside are okay too, easy to change motor types that way.) The solid nose helps the vibration, low vibration helps the engine run.

When you glue the wing in, use slow epoxy. I use some 1 oz fiberglass and finishing resin to harden up the wing center section a bit, so a strip an inch wide where the front of the wing is going to meet the area where the motor mounts are will transfer the shake out into the wing structure, further reducing the profile vibration effecting the engine run.

Next is about profile tanks, I have been using the same Carolina Taffinder tank for profiles for 40 years, so guys on here with recent experience can tell you what is working well, but the tank on a profile is another place one needs to get it right for a solid run.

Flying Stunt is mostly getting the right run when you get down to it, good luck and look forward to seeing your progress.

Chris...

stuntflyr wrote:You've gotten a lot of good info here, Bandit.
One thing to know about the modern engines is that the 10x6 prop is not your friend. For a Fox 35, the 10x6 is it, for a modern engine a 10 or 11x4 is where one would start.

Next is the importance of fuel for each type engine. The Fox and McCoy it seems you know need a lot of oil, I use 25% castor on OS 35S engines and should work on the FP's and LA's too, 29% on McCoys and Foxes because they need the lube and the heat transfer and castor does it best. Some use slightly less and get away with it fine, i wouldn't go less than 25% all castor with the old bushed engines.

Glow plugs i use are Thunderbolt Four Stroke, and hot idle bar, depending on how the engine likes them.

Profiles shake a lot so make the nose very solid, use slow epoxy. Make sure you have good, hard rock maple mounts and if you can find some aftermarket, order them as long as you can. Cut the fuselage so as to have them meet the wing cutout. Check the doublers in the kit, if you think it's hinky, cheap ply, buying some good 1/16th marine ply would be worth it for a replacement. Epoxy it all together, sand flat, then slow epoxy the doublers on with plenty of weight to keep it solid until it cures. (I bury all of my mounting hardware in the rock maple mounts including the tank mounts so nothing can be seen outside of the doublers, but it's a technique. Bolts on the outside are okay too, easy to change motor types that way.) The solid nose helps the vibration, low vibration helps the engine run.

When you glue the wing in, use slow epoxy. I use some 1 oz fiberglass and finishing resin to harden up the wing center section a bit, so a strip an inch wide where the front of the wing is going to meet the area where the motor mounts are will transfer the shake out into the wing structure, further reducing the profile vibration effecting the engine run.

Next is about profile tanks, I have been using the same Carolina Taffinder tank for profiles for 40 years, so guys on here with recent experience can tell you what is working well, but the tank on a profile is another place one needs to get it right for a solid run.

Flying Stunt is mostly getting the right run when you get down to it, good luck and look forward to seeing your progress.

Chris...

Cool thanks, I plan on using my FP40 in it after doing some configuring I may eventually put a fox in it. Its gonna be a while before I get started on the twister since I'm going to use a Flight Streak to get my hands wet and get some practice in first since I believe in taking things slow. I will defently take your construction tips into consideration.
I'm gonna have a tutor to help me hopefully since i'm a member of an RC club that has a separate field for control line. But untill then i'm gonna practice a few things with my Brodak 1/2A wildcat since it's just about ready to go. (Bandit)

Bandit,
Sounds as if you've got great opportunities at your field and with fellow modelers. That's cool. Look on Stunthangar for some tips on keeping the nose of your ARF Flite Streak together. No matter the profile they all need strong noses and there is some incomplete structure on the TF Flite Streak ARF, if that's what your going to use.
Using the FP40 in the Twister is a good way to go. There are a lot of stories about them out there, but a stock liner, a C/L venturi and spray bar/needle valve, and a tongue muffler with a pressure tap installed work well. A good tank (I use a square r/c clunk tank set up for muffler pressure) and fuel make them run fine. That's the one you use an 11x4 prop, they spin high rpm so the low pitch keeps the speed at the right place, let her rev. I wouldn't send it to anyone like Tom Dixon to have the liner "reworked" for different tiing, they usually ruin them.
Have fun.
Chris...

stuntflyr wrote:Bandit,
Sounds as if you've got great opportunities at your field and with fellow modelers. That's cool. Look on Stunthangar for some tips on keeping the nose of your ARF Flite Streak together. No matter the profile they all need strong noses and there is some incomplete structure on the TF Flite Streak ARF, if that's what your going to use.
Using the FP40 in the Twister is a good way to go. There are a lot of stories about them out there, but a stock liner, a C/L venturi and spray bar/needle valve, and a tongue muffler with a pressure tap installed work well. A good tank (I use a square r/c clunk tank set up for muffler pressure) and fuel make them run fine. That's the one you use an 11x4 prop, they spin high rpm so the low pitch keeps the speed at the right place, let her rev. I wouldn't send it to anyone like Tom Dixon to have the liner "reworked" for different tiing, they usually ruin them.
Have fun.
Chris...

Yup they begin to peel, The early plating process that OS used back then usually didn't take well to porting. I also have an old OS Max-H .40 that i'm thinking about trying on the twister too, I've had it since the late 70's and it tough me how to fly . I've just put new bearings in it I have a venturi for it already too. I plan on going through the Flight Streak when I get it but it's gonna be a while since it's on back order everywhere. (Bandit)

I've seen the nose come off of the ARF while in the air. Not a good thing and no one wants the letters OS imbedded in their forehead. I fly many Streaks and typically they have extremely overpowered engines like Fox MK 6's. When I fly with these engines, I use cable restraints on them attached to the bellcrank. Your much better off using the stock fuse as a template and providing your own 1/2" fuse and doublers. The recommended engine for the Streak is the LA .25 and even with this engine, the nose is weak and is susceptible to coming off. It only takes one ground strike. I've seen them come off without ever taking a ground strike. A flooded engine and a good whack of the prop can also do damage to this structure. I do like the ARF, but it does have it's limitations. I'm still flying one from the very first batch Tower offered. I keep a close eye on it however.  The fuse of the ARF is hollow and will snap. It doesn't always break off as it just breaks only to have the engine and tank come flying off at a later time. The instructions are poor and some of them offered poor advice on balancing. When the power quit, the plane went nose high and then quickly nose dived into the ground which was  the beginning of the fracturing.

Brodak offers the Streak in a kit which really is quite a nice flyer using modern engines. The kit is typically less than what most get for the original Top Flite versions.

On another note, the Twister does have some disadvantages. I'm not a fan of single platform bellcranks, However, if the platform is properly secured and the proper bolt is used, this is a non issue. I just use double platforms sandwiching the bellcrank and I upgrade the bolt to allen socket heads. Again, not something needed, just something I do.  One thing I would highly recommend is to use half ribs from the spar forward. Copy your stock rib from the back of the spar notch forward and cut as many needed to fill in between the stock rib configuration. The stock airfoil is very inefficient and this will provide a better airfoil. Blunt the leading edge as much as possible and don't leave it a point. Aluminum T-bar sanders like Great Planes sells is perfect for this when the sticky backed sandpaper is used. Don't use the stock lite ply doublers.Replace the stock doublers with 3/32" 5 ply birch ply.  The stock lite ply doublers are  no good which will lead to not only a weak front end but an engine that will constantly come loose. Tightening the bolts only results in the engine nuts and or engine lugs crushing into it. The spars in a Twister kit are generally Twisted and bowed. If you can find 1/4" x 1/4" spruce, you will have a much stronger and straighter wing. Spruce isn't necessary and can be substituted for good hard straight balsa, I just use spruce for most of my spars. Another important factor, don't leave the wingtips squared off. Do anything to make a wing tip as the stock configuration is a very poor one. Cut any shape or width and glue it on. You could use solid blocks and shape them or even a piece of sheet balsa and gussets, just give them some kind of shape as the stock tips are draggy.

All of the Twister's I built aside from one were all modified. The plan shows the landing gear centerline almost center of the leading edge.I highly recommend using a small piece of hardwood in the fuse under the doubler where the gear protrudes through. After the doublers are applied over it, drill for the gear and install a piece of 5/32" tubing through this hole. This not only properly supports the gear, it prevents oil migration through the hole.  I would personally use lightweight Dave Brown wheels and sweep the gear forward 1/4". I put a bolt through the axle hole and chuck the bolt into my drill press. You can then sand the wheels to a very narrow shape eliminating even more weight but most important drag.  This prevents nose over landings on grass.  I cut the nose 1.5" on all the versions I modified and this required the engine bearers to be extended back slightly further. This was even for the spec'd engine (Fox .35). There's a 2.5 oz difference between the engine you want to use and what the plane was designed for.My later builds, I slid the wing forward. I sand and plane a tear drop shape in the fuse, but don't spend a lot of time thinning the fuse down in the rear. This keeps the Twister fuse from torsionally twisting and it's very likely to do that under load in maneuvers. Ted Fancher modded the Twister years ago however I'm not a fan of the look he gave it. I personally like the stock appearance aside from the wing tips but I do agree with some of his mods. Be sure to install a decent pushrod guide support as this large plane will certainly cause the wire to bow if not properly supported.  Most important, copy a rib and use it for a template so it can be used in the event of a crash. Crashes are likely to happen. Most of all enjoy it it, it's a fun airplane.

When your through with this plane and you would like to fly something different, I would highly recommend a plane which is the Brodak p-40. I think this is one of the best flying profiles I've ever flown and I feel it gets overlooked by many. It's a very simple design for a profile but it has a extremely thick airfoil and properly matched tail feathers which allow for a very graceful point and shoot plane. It builds light and it flies like a full fused plane for me at least. Ken

Ken Cook wrote:I've seen the nose come off of the ARF while in the air. Not a good thing and no one wants the letters OS imbedded in their forehead. I fly many Streaks and typically they have extremely overpowered engines like Fox MK 6's. When I fly with these engines, I use cable restraints on them attached to the bellcrank. Your much better off using the stock fuse as a template and providing your own 1/2" fuse and doublers. The recommended engine for the Streak is the LA .25 and even with this engine, the nose is weak and is susceptible to coming off. It only takes one ground strike. I've seen them come off without ever taking a ground strike. A flooded engine and a good whack of the prop can also do damage to this structure. I do like the ARF, but it does have it's limitations. I'm still flying one from the very first batch Tower offered. I keep a close eye on it however.  The fuse of the ARF is hollow and will snap. It doesn't always break off as it just breaks only to have the engine and tank come flying off at a later time. The instructions are poor and some of them offered poor advice on balancing. When the power quit, the plane went nose high and then quickly nose dived into the ground which was  the beginning of the fracturing.

Brodak offers the Streak in a kit which really is quite a nice flyer using modern engines. The kit is typically less than what most get for the original Top Flite versions.

On another note, the Twister does have some disadvantages. I'm not a fan of single platform bellcranks, However, if the platform is properly secured and the proper bolt is used, this is a non issue. I just use double platforms sandwiching the bellcrank and I upgrade the bolt to allen socket heads. Again, not something needed, just something I do.  One thing I would highly recommend is to use half ribs from the spar forward. Copy your stock rib from the back of the spar notch forward and cut as many needed to fill in between the stock rib configuration. The stock airfoil is very inefficient and this will provide a better airfoil. Blunt the leading edge as much as possible and don't leave it a point. Aluminum T-bar sanders like Great Planes sells is perfect for this when the sticky backed sandpaper is used. Don't use the stock lite ply doublers.Replace the stock doublers with 3/32" 5 ply birch ply.  The stock lite ply doublers are  no good which will lead to not only a weak front end but an engine that will constantly come loose. Tightening the bolts only results in the engine nuts and or engine lugs crushing into it. The spars in a Twister kit are generally Twisted and bowed. If you can find 1/4" x 1/4" spruce, you will have a much stronger and straighter wing. Spruce isn't necessary and can be substituted for good hard straight balsa, I just use spruce for most of my spars. Another important factor, don't leave the wingtips squared off. Do anything to make a wing tip as the stock configuration is a very poor one. Cut any shape or width and glue it on. You could use solid blocks and shape them or even a piece of sheet balsa and gussets, just give them some kind of shape as the stock tips are draggy.

All of the Twister's I built aside from one were all modified. The plan shows the landing gear centerline almost center of the leading edge.I highly recommend using a small piece of hardwood in the fuse under the doubler where the gear protrudes through. After the doublers are applied over it, drill for the gear and install a piece of 5/32" tubing through this hole. This not only properly supports the gear, it prevents oil migration through the hole.  I would personally use lightweight Dave Brown wheels and sweep the gear forward 1/4". I put a bolt through the axle hole and chuck the bolt into my drill press. You can then sand the wheels to a very narrow shape eliminating even more weight but most important drag.  This prevents nose over landings on grass.  I cut the nose 1.5" on all the versions I modified and this required the engine bearers to be extended back slightly further. This was even for the spec'd engine (Fox .35). There's a 2.5 oz difference between the engine you want to use and what the plane was designed for.My later builds, I slid the wing forward. I sand and plane a tear drop shape in the fuse, but don't spend a lot of time thinning the fuse down in the rear. This keeps the Twister fuse from torsionally twisting and it's very likely to do that under load in maneuvers. Ted Fancher modded the Twister years ago however I'm not a fan of the look he gave it. I personally like the stock appearance aside from the wing tips but I do agree with some of his mods. Be sure to install a decent pushrod guide support as this large plane will certainly cause the wire to bow if not properly supported.  Most important, copy a rib and use it for a template so it can be used in the event of a crash. Crashes are likely to happen. Most of all enjoy it it, it's a fun airplane.

When your through with this plane and you would like to fly something different, I would highly recommend a plane which is the Brodak p-40. I think this is one of the best flying profiles I've ever flown and I feel it gets overlooked by many. It's a very simple design for a profile but it has a extremely thick airfoil and properly matched tail feathers which allow for a very graceful point and shoot plane. It builds light and it flies like a full fused plane for me at least. Ken

I didn't know that the fuselage was hollow on the Streak Hmm, I might just strip the covering off and extend the doubler's with aircraft birch ply to help strengthen it. The engine that I'm gonna use is an old Pre-FP OS "Max" 25 loop port engine that I've acquired from Rusty (Thanks Rusty!!) there's not gonna be a 35 or 40 in it. The streak is going to be used to get used to flying a larger model on longer lines and to start learning stunts before I get the twister done.
On the subject about the twister, yeah I've looked the kit over and have already compiled a list of things that I'm gonna replace or mod one being the as you stated bell-crank platform. I'm going to replace the ply and sandwich it in and use an black oxide socket head bolt to attach it and since you've mentioned adding sub-ribs I'm gonna add them as well (I've already have a lot of the parts copied). As far as the gear goes, I'm going to use a piece of hardwood dowel and embed it in the fuselage using 30min epoxy adding a piece of brass tubing is a good idea so i'll do that too Thanks!. The doubler's are going to be replaced too. You've pretty much have read my mind on this lol. The engine is going to be my FP40 most likely I have an OS MAX-H .40 that I may try as well.
The Southeastern Model show is going to be next weekend so I may try and pick up an old ringmaster and engine there.
(Bandit)

The ARF Streak is fine as is with that engine. If you were to use something larger than a .25 I would make a new fuse. Don't waste time trying to beef up that fuse. The fuse is actually a built up fuse with cardboard and ply formers. It's faster, stronger and easier to make an entire new fuse. You can also increase the nose length a bit 1" if you also make a new one which will make tank installation easier. The nose is very short on a Streak. I use chicken hoppers which not only gives you additional capacity but it also feeds better in tight maneuvers especially overhead. We fly a lot of slow combat and the Streak is still hot amongst us. We use FP .25's and they go pretty well. Ken.