Windy videos

Ken Cook wrote:I used to see Windy a few times a year at a contest in north Jersey and Brodak's. He's taken a break from the hobby for the past few years and has done motorcycle restoration and riding. I remember a club member had Windy's Sweeper hanging in his kitchen. I actually found that picture. The plane next to it is a Nobler just to get an idea of it's size.   http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/user_files/44556.jpg     That plane now resides at Brodak's. I got a up front view of watching it fly prior to it's retirement. It used a Tiger .60 for power.  John Brodak was going to make a museum for control line planes and engines. I haven't heard much of it lately. Ken

That's a LOT of airplane! The only model that size.. that I've ever been close to, was on Dave Cook's (N.E.S.T.) worktable back in the early 90's. He was framing-up a self-designed I-Beam spar stunter for a Super-Tiger G-51 engine. A meticulous builder and skilled competitor; Dave is also a great guy and very smart. I hope to be seeing him at the field in Wrentham, MA this Spring.

I have spent quite a few hours now watching the "Windy" videos - he is an incredible model builder.
I would never be able to spend that much time perfecting the finish on model but there are some gems of buidling and finishing ideas.

As usual though, there seems to be a "wealth" of materials available in the USA and in some things got a little lost in translation.

He refers to dope as "Brodak" dope. Is that nitrate dope, butyrate, shrinking or non-shrinking?

He applies around three to five coats of this, sanding in betweedn and filling with an acrylic putty.

Then he uses a "silver" dope to further highlight dings and dimples. Where do you get silver dope?

I assume - maybe wrongly - that he uses cellulose paint to finish and what a final finish! I would be nervous about even handling or carrying a plane with that finish let alone flying it!

Ian, I'm pretty sure the base coat is nitrate and the final finish is butyrate dope. As I understand it, you can apply butyrate over nitrate, but not visa versa. Also Butyrate is the fuel proof dope. Silver also makes the colors more brilliant, but I don 't know what kind of paint it is. I have not yet watched any finishing videos yet either.
Rusty

Windy, Bob Hunt, Joe Adamusko, Dan Banjock plus several others will tell you to use butyrate from start to finish. Butyrate takes a little longer to dry, but there's less of a tendency to pull back around intersections like fillets. Sig Supercoat clear is a high shrink dope as well as Brodak butyrate clear. The colors in both are low shrink. So after all these coats, A low shrink dope is needed to stop further shrinking.   Windy has at least 6-8 coats of dope on the structure prior to color. Tops of ribs, wingtips and areas that will be considered "high areas" will have 10-13 coats of dope prior to color. When Windy shoots the fuse for example, any residual dope left in the gun is sprayed onto areas like I just mentioned. Nitrate itself requires a different thinner with the exception of Sig dope which uses the same thinner for both. Brodak dope uses to individual thinners. Windy however and those above use certain thinners according to the day that there spraying on. This makes a huge difference in how it flows. Dupont 3608S is the universal thinner for Sig and Brodak and Randolph.3608 S is a hotter thinner and this can be purcahsed according to your required dry times needed. The hotter the thinner, the more chance of blushing will occur. Sig thinner is the slowest drying thinner and typically provides the best results for me. This is why it brushes the best with hardly any visible brush strokes. Brodak takes quite a bit of a learning curve due to it drying faster as it's a medium drying thinner. Randolph makes both Sig and Brodak, but the formulas aren't the same. Butyrate clear is the finish that all of these excellent builders use and this has Dave Brown's Flex agent/plasticizer added to it. This is the key to keeping these planes looking the way they do. The silkspan feels like Monokote it's so flexible.  While he suggests that he uses Brodak, Brodak dope isn't as hard of a finish as Sig Lite Coat. Sig Lite Coat when sprayed was the clearest of clears until John Brodak just introduced his Crystal clear butyrate. The plane has approx 4-6 coats of clear sprayed on and then wet sanded.

As for the silver, silver dope is available through Sig and also Brodak. Silver however can provide some not so friendly results. It doesn't always allow for a good bite into it thus the top coats may not adhere to it properly. It can also turn colors like yellow into a  greenish color. I've cleared it prior to certain colors due to this problem.  The reason it's used is that the plane is held up to dim light (candling) they look for imperfections. When the body looks like a block of mill finish aluminum, it's ready to be all sanded down and the process repeated. At this point Nitro Stan red putty is wet sanded into any dings or dents. Problem is that with using these paints shrinkage is always taking place. Many days are needed in between base coats and color coats and also finish coats. The plane after finishing needs to sit until it gasses off prior to wet sanding the clear coats to achieve the shine. The top coats may appear dry to the touch but the underlying material is still wet and also shrinking. This is a very laborious process. It's also extremely expensive. Ken

Thanks for the heads up. As usual, all thoughts and contributions are welcome - right or wrong!

I am currently investigating UK equivalents - not that easy to find in quantity - just small cans.

SIG and Brodak are non- existent.

I keep thinking that it is about time I returned to tissue, nylon or silk.

I am currently building (among other things) a Frog Aerobat. It seems to be a likely candidate.

I'm not sure that the iron on stuff I have been using is right for vintage designs. I also like the smell of dope, cellulose thinners and banana oil - second only to model diesel fuel!

I've been trying to take the time to watch some of these videos. One thing I have noticed is his use of CA. I use it to tack parts in place or to harden pieces, but generally use wood glue, epoxy and Testors wood cement for most things. I have yet to see Windy use anything but one type or another of CA. I haven't seen him build a wing yet, which I'm hoping to find soon. I was just wondering on what our CEF builders think of such wide CA application. It sure makes things faster. His pieces always fit perfectly flush, where mine would surely have gaps, so that's one reason I probably can't use it on everything.

Thoughts and opinions?
Rusty

I have now watched many of these videos in complete fascination. I think it has/or will change my attitude to model building. I do have issues though with not understanding the American products or his descriptions of the materials and tools being used. Some translation to "English" is required.

I have seen him use other glues but this is rare. In one of the recent videos I watch he was building a cockpit with a bubble canopy. To create the floor he stuck "something" (it looked like what we call "wet and dry paper") to a piece of balsa to make the floor. Then after much patience and liberal use of CA to hardern balsa he had created an oval groove for the bubble canopy. He used epoxy to cement down the canopy. He stated quite clearly not to use CA for this because it would mist/bubble the canopy..

I also watched hime repairing a cracked fuselage from a crashed model. He mixed a slow setting epoxy and used a red dye (of some description that I am not familiar with!). He then worked it into the crack while applying heat to make the epoxy runny and flow better. The repair was invisible.

However, I didn't understand the application of heat. The epoxies I use don't get runnier when they are warmed up but set faster!

I also saw him use somthing called "hambroyd". He used this to place the finally balsa sheeting to cover a wing. This was obviously a slow setting cement/glue as he took his time to coat the edges and the wing ribs. He then proceeded to tape down and weight the sheeting. I would have used pins - many of them!

That made me realise why he used CA for tacking and gluing. No pin holes to fill or create a weakness in such light structures.

I thought it clever the way he would tack a block onto the top of fuselage sides to shape it and then remove it to gouge out the inside to as little as 3/32". I usually apply glue, leave to set and carve - leaving the rest of the block in place!

I also watched him building a wing - carefully tacking the ribs in place - again, no pins. I have split ribs with over zealous pinning or a misplaced thumb! He uses diffent viscosites to finish the job.

I understand his use of CA to harden thin, soft balsa and delicate looking edges but it is my experience that:-

1. CA is brittle
2. It is not fuel proof

Although, when you see the finishes he applies - inside and out - fuel proofness is not an issue.

He uses epoxy with stitching for landing gear but I saw him use CA for hardwood engine bearers. Not sure about that one!

CA certainly makes for a quick build.

Ian, we use the term "Wet/Dry Paper" meaning finishing sandpaper which is frequently a dark charcoal color. Maybe that's what you heard him talking about. And he likes adhesive backed sandpaper for various reasons too.

Ambroid is a popular brand of cellulose based glue, as is the Testors I mentioned above. I think it's made with different solvents for bonding wood or plastic or metal. I grew up calling it airplane glue.

I don't know what the red dye in the epoxy might have been. If I figure it out, I'll let you know. Keep posting whenever you hear something that doesn't register. The guy has a much different accent than I do too.
Rusty

I used to use "Ambroid" model cement. It was the standard prior to "Hot Stuff" (which was one of the 1st Cyanoacrylate adhesives introduced here in the U.S. for our hobby) Ambroid is I believe; a celluloid and acetone based cement, and get's it's name from it's amber color. This is very interesting reading; http://www.ottertooth.com/Canoe_pages/ambroid.htm

I build mostly with CA now, because of the speed in which you can put a structure together. Nice tight dry-fitting of joints still takes time though. Sloppy joints bridged with glue; not only look bad.. they're weaker and heavier. I still use epoxy in areas that require high strength.. and/or could be subjected to fuel exposure.

Fiberglass window screen material makes a terrific lightweight and extremely strong patch when applied correctly. I generally cut the size I need with scissors, tack it in place at it's corners with CA.. and apply epoxy; using a plumbing flux-brush with the bristles cut to about 3/8" long. This works really well to spread the epoxy through the screen mesh and onto the underlying panels.

I think that people who really enjoy building.. enjoy it more so than flying. I definitely fit into this category. Discovering  new/different building tools only makes the experience more enjoyable and less wasteful/laborious. Windy U. is tops for this!

LOL.. I just read Rusty's post.. Windy's accent could be mistaken for spot-on "South Boston, MA".. although I don't believe he's from there.

roddie wrote:...LOL.. I just read Rusty's post.. Windy's accent could be mistaken for spot-on "South Boston, MA".. although I don't believe he's from there.

I'd hate to know what you'd call mine. I even hate hearing it.
My typing accent is much more sophisticated.  

Rusty,we use a red dye in toolmaking,its called Dykem Red,when applied to steel it etches very easy to see what the tool is doing it is also very running,could he be using that to see where the epoxy is going.