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Post  RknRusty Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:17 pm

...Either with me, or at me. Makes no difference.lol! 

Anyway, last time I flew the Shoestring, you all witnessed it, my loops were jumpy and I couldn't make a round one to save my life. I haven't ever had that kind of trouble. Maybe too tight, or not on track, or not all the same size, but damn, I just couldn't do it. Funny thing was, my square maneuvers were consistently pretty good, so WTH!

I don't recall now if I already wrote about it, but when I got home and looked at my Sullivan Insta Just, the cable was all bent up, pointing in different directions, and if you pulled on either one, it would straighten a bend on either side of the adjusting nut and get a half inch longer.Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Slaphead Well, hell, that would do it. And the squares pull so quick and hard, the lines tighten almost instantly, so it doesn't show as bad. Well I've been fretting over Google searches and reading about handles and looking at pictures. But it'll be a few weeks before I can get a new one, and I need a good working one NOW!

It just so happened that I bumbled upon two perfect sized copper crimp tubes in some junk I had snagged at a club meeting when a member was cleaning his cabinets out. So even though I went out to the shop to work on the Yak, this handle seemed more urgent. So I set out to straighten and shorten the cables. Even straight cables can affect the plane in light line situations, because they're so stiff and springy. and the SS's elevator is very free moving. I intended to do it per AMA minimum requirements... in other words, barely good enough. This requires a set of round nosed pliers. I know I've used dull cutters or needlenose in the past, but recall I recently had a leadout pop, so I'm upping my standards. But good enough is good enough for one week until I can get a hardpoint handle.

Well I don't have any damn round nose pliers. And I want to fly! Soon! So the gears started turning and I came up with a classic Rockn'Rusty solution.Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Cool First off, I wanted to tame my throws a bit, so I need to set the lines at the same width as the bellcrank. I'd had some acceleration of my input at 4" handle width hooked to a 3" bellcrank, so I bored a set of 3" holes and soldered a couple of short pieces of brass tube in the holes. Then it was time to fix the cable. I took it off the handle and tried to straighten it by heating it, not incandescent but good and hot and pulling it tight. It might have helped a little, but not much. Then I put it back through the new holes and tightened the nut so one end was only 2" long. The ends had been 6" before, way too long. Then I cut the other end off and prepared to crimp it at 2". That should be plenty for minor trimming for the elevator check.

I put the crimp tube on and looped the wire through. It was really tight but I made the required three passes with the little loop protruding from the tail end. Now it was time for the round nose pliers.
Take a look:
Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Pliers11  Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Crimp10

I superglued two pieces of 1/16" music wire to opposing grooves in my pliers, and voila, round nosed pliers. And the crimp looked good too. The cable was dirty, and I didn't trust it even after acetone cleaning, I put the plier handles in the vice and gave the center crimp a good snug. My grip ain't what it used to be. I hooked it to my fishing scale and sustained a 35# pull for about 30 seconds. Then I tested each wire by itself, and they passed a 30# pull too.

I am confident my stunts will be much more shapely next time, hopefully Tuesday. They were so distorted last time, I got disgusted and locked the Youtube video after a day. Anyway, since I didn't go fly today, I figured I'd post something. Y'all know how I like to write. So anyway, that's what I did today. That and cranked the SS with it's new APC 10x3 to make sure I can adjust the needle in its new upside down configuration. That allowed me to cut more than 3" off the line from the rank to the engine. It's been a lot easier to start since I did that too.

Rusty

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Post  pkrankow Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:48 pm

OK, I know there are a bunch of pictures of crimped connections, so we have all seen the different common iterations...specifically the type Rusty is showing, and the type where the tag end is taken outside the crimp sleeve and passed through so there is a 4th pass outside to get 3 passes inside.

Is there any practical difference to this?

BTW nicely done, great idea with the pliers.

Phil
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Post  RknRusty Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:03 pm

pkrankow wrote:...we have all seen the different common iterations...specifically the type Rusty is showing, and the type where the tag end is taken outside the crimp sleeve and passed through so there is a 4th pass outside to get 3 passes inside.

Is there any practical difference to this?

BTW nicely done, great idea with the pliers.

Phil
My Li'l Jumpin' Bean had the latter type in the instructions. It's not as neat looking, but seems possibly stronger to me. Some of the SH guys differed on the merits of each. I think it was in Larry Renger's Baby Clown thread, and IIRC, Larry made the outside pass.
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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:50 pm

I do like the pliers. I do not have round points so next time I am in a pinch I know what to do!

I wire wrap most of mine now anyway. Now.....I have heard the term "hard point handle" and I really want to know what the heck one is!

Ron
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Post  kevbo Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:06 pm

pkrankow wrote:OK, I know there are a bunch of pictures of crimped connections, so we have all seen the different common iterations...specifically the type Rusty is showing, and the type where the tag end is taken outside the crimp sleeve and passed through so there is a 4th pass outside to get 3 passes inside.

Is there any practical difference to this?

BTW nicely done, great idea with the pliers.

Phil
Well, I don't know about practical, because a good crimp on either will hold, but there is some difference in how the two behave if the crimp is loose and allows the wire to start slipping.

First off, in both cases, if the standing line slips in the sleeve, then the loop just becomes tighter. If you have an eyelet or thimble, then no problem. Could cause binding if it bare cable on a bellcrank, but not really an immediate catastrophic failure. A tight loop binding on the bell crank will lead to a fatigue failure down the road through.

What will cause lots of trouble is if the free end comes loose from the sleeve. This will nearly always crash an airplane, and is a safety concern.

The first type (back through sleeve in opposite direction) is relying on the fact that the bend will hang up in the sleeve if it tries to slip. As the end slips, the loop will become a kink, which may be weak and break.

The second type (outside, then back through in same direction) is relying on the friction of the loop on the two ends of the sleeve, and the friction between the two non-standing passes as they slip in opposite directions.
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Post  RknRusty Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:32 pm

Hard point jandles have no overhanging cables. Some are adjustable in different ways, but all are more dependent on equal length lines.

These are hardpoint.
Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7109
Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... EFLA170-250



This is not a hardpoint handle. The overhanging cables can have unwanted influence your controls.:
Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... Suls166

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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 am

Ok makes sense, not sure I like the idea of non adjustable line lengths though. I swap my handle around so I am constantly adjusting lines.

On the other hand anything that make me fly better is always welcome. Looking at those handles even the hole that is closest in is more than 4" in spacing. If you are suppposed to adjust to the size of your bellcrank that handle ain't gonna do it.

Might be worth a shot.

Ron
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Post  RknRusty Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:18 am

Cribbs74 wrote:Ok makes sense, not sure I like the idea of non adjustable line lengths though. I swap my handle around so I am constantly adjusting lines.

On the other hand anything that make me fly better is always welcome. Looking at those handles even the hole that is closest in is more than 4" in spacing. If you are supposed to adjust to the size of your bellcrank that handle ain't gonna do it.

Might be worth a shot.

Ron
There is a set screw in that black one that allows you to slide one bracket in or out, and the brown one has thumb screw adjusters on both sides for length. Look closely and you can see one of the connectors is set longer than the other.

I think the black one has holes for between 3" and 4", maybe 5", look at the finger grips. Minus my thumb, my fist is 4" wide. Those brackets overlap an inch on each side. I'll check some of the specs out more closely.

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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:38 am

I think my Hot Rock is 4" set spacing and my hand fits snug in the grip and my thumb rests up top. I'd like to try one of those hard points just to see/feel the difference. I like the theory behind it, just don't know if it will make a difference seeing as my skill level isn't on a pro level.

Ron
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Post  RknRusty Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:50 am

Cribbs74 wrote:I think my Hot Rock is 4" set spacing and my hand fits snug in the grip and my thumb rests up top. I'd like to try one of those hard points just to see/feel the difference. I like the theory behind it, just don't know if it will make a difference seeing as my skill level isn't on a pro level.

Ron
Maybe not pro, but as good as you care to work up to.
For your practice patterns with the Baby Clown, did you find a prop that tames it to your liking yet?

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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:17 am

Not yet. I only had 1 flight the whole weekend. I had to fix my fence. I get a little ticked at times that the LHS's around here don't carry crap be it fuel/props or otherwise. I can't justify ordering online waiting a week and paying shipping for a couple of props. Getting mad just thinking about it. Electric may be good for some, but it doesn't help me out at all.

Rant over....

Ron
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Post  kevbo Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:11 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Ok makes sense, not sure I like the idea of non adjustable line lengths though. I swap my handle around so I am constantly adjusting lines.

One way to do it is to tweak the length of the airplane end clips and leave them on the planes so that all the planes work with one handle/line set. These clips compensate for any inequality in leadout length. If you also like to swap lines, then you leave the second set of clips (handle end) on the lines, and these clips are tweaked to make both lines exactly the same length. Now you should be able to use any line set on any model with any handle, including cable handles, and you shouldn't need to adjust your adjustable handles, so you should be able to keep the kinks out of your handle cables.

To do this you need a selection of clip lengths, or the option of making them yourself. Lee machine sells a gizmo for making custom length clips. Not too hard to make your own gizmo given a modest shop and willingness to work metal. One design has the bending pins mounted on the jaws of a cheap drill press vice. A stack of shims is clamped in the vice jaws to set and vary the pin spacing.

This is the preferred way to adjust hard point handles for line length differences. Adjusting the end arm biases the action slightly toward up or down, and that is what the adjustable arm is intended to allow. The baseline is to have the two connection points square to the lines when holding the handle where you want neutral to be. The guys that are big on hardpoint handles are also typically exponents of bias handles, but the two need not be confused.
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Post  GUS THE I.A. Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:55 pm

Hey Ron,

If you need something in a hurry, let me know. I can zip it to you ASAP-you know how quick things ship between Wichita and Tuttle. Let me know, piece of cake!
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Post  duke.johnson Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:15 am

Hey Ron! The guys helping my oldest son with his begginner stunt pattern are very good C/L flyers and have moved him to a hard point handle already. You can build your own to whatever size you want. I have a pattern that I can scan and send you, if you want. Most of the guys have a handle for each contest plane. I will still use the old handles for the .15 and down.
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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 am

Doug, thanks, I will let you know if I need anything.

Duke, sounds good I wouldn't mind the plans for one.
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Post  duke.johnson Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:25 am

I can scan it when I get home.
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Post  Mark Boesen Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:38 am

guys, don't get hung up on 'hard point' handles. I would suggest one that could adjust spacing and one thats comfortable.

Rusty, a small piece of bicycle inner tube slipped over handle or friction tape to hold adjustment in slot.

Also, keep one clip on handle and one clip on end of line so you use same line for up/down every time.
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Post  duke.johnson Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:08 pm

I agree Mark. But this does seem to be a great way to adjust line spacing. Hard Point handles won't fix my flying problems.Very Happy  I have had lots of problems with loop size/shape that were fixed by changing the line spacing at the handle. I also like the idea of make my handle, I get one that fits and I like make my own things.
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Post  RknRusty Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:32 pm

This is what I've got. I'll probably stick with it for a while. The cables are a lot shorter now than they were, and I wrapped it in tennis racket tape to keep it from slipping in my hand.
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Post  Mark Boesen Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:44 pm

hey that will work, spacing is good and looks comfortable. Here's a couple pics of my old set-ups. The blue handle looks great but a little thick and never really liked it, used the clear coated one the most. I had a really nice red painted handle (used one for each plane) but left it out at field...gone forever! The reels where turned on a 110v drill mounted in a vice, didn't take that long, but made a mess!
Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... 11482210Fixing my handle, maybe this'll give you a good Yuk... 11845210


Last edited by Mark Boesen on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  duke.johnson Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:20 am

Heck, I like the reel! Nice job, on a drill motor too.
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