Lil satan build, cant decide on a power plant

A bladder can go anywhere. A tank has to be positioned right where the bellcrank will hit. The bladder can have a mesh over it, and be fastened above the wing or even inside the wing outboard of the rib where the bellcrank is. I'd like the Norvel, but the TD would be the second choice. If nose heavy, you can move the motor back as far as possible and add tail weight or strengthen something at the rear.

It won’t be nose heavy with a TD or Medallion. It will be tail heavy. The Babe bee it’s designed around is a heavier engine.

The one I built has a custom made tank, but it also has an offest bellcrank. It can be done just a matter of preference. Rusty runs a bladder on his L’il Satan held on by a mesh bag like mentioned above.

it's really what you want, there's no right or wrong with answers. the best would be Tee Dee or Norvel on pressure, second would be Venom II, but would require less work.

Nice looking build you got there. I will leave the engine recommendations to those with more knowledge than myself. Again, just came here to say teh build was going nicely.

I've flown mine on a Golden Bee. Once in the early 80's (CH original) and a couple years back on a Wido Satan (flyinglines.org reproduction). That's a lot of weight up front! I want to say it puts the CG right on the leading edge. I can mount a Black Widow and document the CG for you.

I will admit to never trying with a streamer, so that might make enough difference. But flying bare, I'd go with a beam or radial mount anything with an external tank.

If it isn't too late, mount the bellcrank 1/2 bay left, and stick the tank as far right as possible in the center bay. This also implies sheeting the extra bay  occupied by the moved bellcrank. Mount bell crank so the elevator push rod comes out just inside the inboard tail boom. Mount the needle inboard of center, so fuel is drawn from the outboard side, inline with the tank. My next swing at this plane will be with a really stout product engine (horseshoe backplate with bigger venturi) with the above changes.

If your suggesting to build a plane with the streamer as a determining factor to cg location, it has no bearing on the cg. All the streamer is going to offer is a bit slower speed, it won't impact maneuverability.There are times however when a very twitchy plane will be tamed down due to the streamer. If one is flying combat, you always fly the model with a streamer on it prior to using it for it's intended purpose. If you have a opponent to fly with, I highly recommend staying away from a integral tank bee, by the time you get both started, both of them running forward, restarting the one that shut off,etc., you will be very frustrated. If your flying just for fun, by all means use whatever your choice is. One thing I would avoid is the radial Dave Brown mounts for a beam mounted engine. They vibrate too much and break directly on the rear screws of the lug mounts that pass through the engine.

Hi everyone thanks for the feedback. This forum is an awesome sounding board.

I really like the idea/concept of using a pressure bladder. I dont have a fine needle for the teedee, or know how to get the supplies localy. From a quick search I would need to import them. I do want to give this a try at some point. Probably a bit to get used to on the starting end.

Good point on the streamer, I was thinking about it wrong it's robably more drag than anything else. Hmm didn't know those plastic horse shoe mounts broke over time. Makes sense. I guess I have been lucky to date, also haven't really flown a lot either though.

I think I'm going to mock up a beam mount and see how everything balances, make it wide enough so that a norvel or a teedee could fit. I haven't drilled the belcrank mount yet so I can easily move it over to accommodate the tank and beam mount.

I got some more ideas from searching around on here to see what others had done.

They used to available from Texas Timers, looks like not anymore. You can always post a want ad or do this:

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t11875-fine-thread-nv-assembly-for-a-td

You could always put blind nuts in the firewall for a integral type bee but you could also utilize a aluminum TD backplate mount. This would eliminate beams. These have symmetric holes around the radius in which two or more may line up with the Bee pattern.

Here's my setup with the aluminum radial mounted TeeDee and a bladder. I used the Tee Dee's unused engine mounting tabs to screw lead ballast to.
Notice the spar in the wing to help form the airfoil and eliminate the starved horse ribs look. The bladder and filter are in that black mesh sleeve and the bladder tube has a Fourmost 1-way valve in its tail for quick fueling.



Look at the fully fueled bladder in this picture and you can see the 1-way valve. The bladder tube is about 2" long when it's empty, about twice as big as it needed to be. The mesh sleeve is secured to the tail boom with a piece of Dacron string.



Here's how it flies: ( the embedded video isn't working for me tonight, but the plain link works.)
https://youtu.be/EjERe3xYnVA

Rusty,
I just watched that video...and am embarrassed! You say you needed lead weight on the engine lugs?
I would think adding weight would get it close to the weight of mine.

I ran mine with a Golden Bee. It can't turn inverted, let alone loop or Fig 8!

944_Jim wrote:Rusty,
I just watched that video...and am embarrassed! You say you needed lead weight on the engine lugs?
I would think adding weight would get it close to the weight of mine.

I ran mine with a Golden Bee. It can't turn inverted, let alone loop or Fig 8!

Really? Do you think it's too nose heavy? Mine was hunting badly without the weight, but now I don't think it turns tight enough. I've never gone back and re-trimmed it though. I probably have too much paint on the tail, that's an easy mistake to make with rattlecan paint. My Baby Streaks will blow the doors off of it. Especially the .061 powered one. I don't remember its weight, probably 6 ounces or so. I'll try to remember to weigh it tomorrow.
Rusty

Woweee that rig rips. Thanks for sharing. Yup this little guy doesnt seem to have much of an airfoil looks like that piece you added behind the leading edge helped a lot.

I'm torn between radial and beam mount now lol.

It is interesting, I thought it would turn a bit tighter as well. It sure looks exciting to fly, cant wait.

The Satan is small and heavy compared to what is available now. The design is very old. Still fun though.

Hi, Layback. Maybe we should all do some collaborative R&D on our Satans. I have been mostly grounded for almost two years, but as my ability to fly and handle the Control Line wind-dance seems to be improving, I want to get back to my 1/2-A roots to help get my competitive PA skills tuned back up. Twitchy fast 1/2-A is a great way to regain my balance and muscle memory, so I'm looking forward to doing some projects. If you can fly 1/2-A, you can fly anything short of speed and Fast Combat.

My shop time will still be limited until my cold concrete floor in the shop isn't sucking the life out of my painful legs, but as Spring is coming, I can do some trimming and testing in the near future. Besides my club is having a 1/2A PA(Stunt) contest in September and I intend to win it... or at least not finish last place, Lol.

As for tight turning, it helps to learn to fly a tad tail heavy. Looking at where my bladder is placed, I can adjust the fore-aft balance by adjusting that. I have it now so a full bladder straddles the high point of the wing at about 35% chord with the nose weight up front. This makes it twitchy until the bladder shrinks forward during flight, and most stable during the last half of the fuel load. So my combination of lead and bladder placement can be toyed with.  I could also increase the stab area and/or decrease the boom length.

Don't forget the prop size. A longer prop will increase the turning radius due to(I am not a physicist, so feel free to correct me) gyroscopic and inertial influence. A higher pitch(seems to me) makes the turns grow wider. I've been flying mine with a Master Airscrew 5.25" x 3", but a  5" or a 4.75 x 3 might be a quick fix. For stunting, an APC 6x2 will sometimes be a good start, cutting it down as you adjust. Low pitched APC props allow the highest RPMs without the blinding flight speed. It's the best prop short of the expensive glass Russian combat jobs. Just make sure you keep the Tee Dee under about 24k RPM or risk breaking the crankshaft... or put a Norvel on it and let 'er rip, Lol! The Combat guys cut them down to less than 5". If you go with APC, buy enough to have replacements for busted blades. Also, too much prop will slow the engine to below where SPI is effective. The little engines need to spool up fast to hit the peak power band. There is no other brand besides APC that I would ever consider as long as 6", and then only with a tame pitch of 2".

Just some things to think about for you guys that want performance. And remember, the Li'l Satan is more of a toy Combat plane. Look on my 'Tube channel to see my Super Satan fly in October 2018. That's a Real combat ship that can do 120 MPH. That's our own Londke3 on the handle. I was still flying a walker back in the Fall, Lol. I'll be working back up to that kind of flying.
Rusty

Just for the benefit of Mr. Layback and Rusty there are 1/2A combats available similar to the FAI ones that are bigger and lighter than the old stuff.  Only problem is you need to buy 10 or 20 at a time.  Yaro is somewhat local for me and I can usually get 1 or 2 at a time and pick them up at a Beanfield meet which is 1 1/2 hrs away.  The .15 size ones just blow me away how well they fly, even with a weak motor.  I think maybe it would make just a good stunter with a TD and a 6-2 prop?  It would be fun to test out at least.http://aerohobby.ca/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=294 I assume it is ok to post this.  I think the price is less than $40 US.  Anyway. notice that the bladder housing is in the span direction in the wing and the motor mounts are beam.  Most guys use aluminum mounts.  Of course I don't.  I think maple is lighter. The thoughts are you can bend them back in a match.  I just play with myself? so I just pack up and go home if it breaks.

Hi, Speed. Yeah, I'm just a sport flyer with combat planes too. I have the SS and a Brodak 1/2A Gladiator with an AME .061. As far as competition I'm an avid CLPA guy trying to "belong" in Advanced. I bought the Li'l Satan before I even knew what the Combat sport was. Cannibalized it over 10 years or so till there was nothing in the box but plans and some of the ribs.

Then when I got active again and had built the Jumpin' Bean and a Flite Streak, I opened the Satan box and pretty much scratch built it. It began life with a Black Widow and flew pretty well and would loop and 8 fine. Later it had an RR1 that Mudhen gave me. It was surprisingly powerful, much more than a BW. And then Fit90 Bob sent me my first Tee Dee and bladder supplies, and I finally learned what real performance could be. I like to say "Once you go TD, you'll never go back." And the same applies to bladders and Norvels.

After the Bean, built for learning to loop, was too cracked up to repair I used the remains to build the Refried Bean as you can see in my avatar. It folded a wing during a figure 8 and is now a hangar queen.
It was 6 ounces of BadAss during its short life.



Here it is on the 'Tube too. This engine run was a little off, bogging with an oversized 5.5" x 3" Master Airscrew. A 5x3 woke it up nicely as it did for the Satan too.:

https://youtu.be/RobymeDXZkc

I've been watching your videos for a while, and lately some of the Stunthanger chats. I am not on the Stunthanger thing b'cause I can't remember the pattern and order. My planes don't seem to like the overhead stuff as well as me. The F2D plane with the Fora is a hoot. Haven't tried my little Fora yet. My local field requires a muffler, and I am a bit slow with bladders. Got to figure something out there. One of the combat guys from Detroit mentioned using a regulator so you can skip the hemostats. Gets me thinking but not hard enough to figure it out.

Rusty, Thank you for the course on props, and to the use of them, appreciated. Question, the picture you posted of your plane, does it have the wings of the Li'l Jumpin Bean and the tail boom from the Li'l Satan? That's what it looks like to me, it looks super sharp, and I would like to try and build it. Thank you in advance, super information here and just such a great site. Thank you all again.

Hemostats are no good. Their too clumsy, the locks have to be fiddled with and it runs the risk of going into the prop. A simple line clip screwed to the plane is all that's needed. Slide the fuel line through the open end of the line clip, push the fuel line into the mid section and it's pinched off. This is nearly hands free. While your holding the plane, once the engine is running on prime, slide the fuel line in the clip out into the open side of it and fuel is flowing. This method allows your hands to be holding the plane at all times and one finger can easily slide the fuel line out of the pinch off. I made a pair of wooden pinchers which I use but my son and I are very in synch with each other making startups very quick and safe.
The other good reason to have it attached to the plane is due to it retaining the fuel line keeping it from flopping around. Flopping can cause the engine to surge due to it pinching it making it blip lean and back again. It also can keep the tubing out of hot exhaust so it doesn't get burned. The Fora does have a angled exhaust stack but many side exhaust engines leave the fuel line exposed to heat. I use a latex product which stands up well to fuel but will instantly burn up with heat so routing is imperative.

Hi Rusty,
Glad to see you planning a comeback to the C/L circle very soon !!
That Lil Satan /TD.049 combo looked great !! Couldn't help but think that it was the LS kit and TD the you got from our horse trading session a few years back...
That TD was either brand new or run for a very short time and I hoped it would find a good home in the air.
BTW, although thru a bunch of adversity, I've got those Chevy parts all in the same pile with all the necessary stuff to make noise soon.
Need about $250 in machine work to assemble it all for a fun street power plant hopefully this Spring.
It won't have the same power level you had at the drag strip but it will be a very respectable and fun engine to drive.
Steve.....

I'm definitely up for collaborating on the lil satan, I'll post where my c.g. come out and how it performs.

Thanks Aspeed, those combat models look awesome! I like the bit and Bob's too through them. Would love to try one out. I'm just a back yard basher myself, not sure I could justify a box of 10 to my wife lol. I have seen online some interesting foam wing 1/2a combat rigs that have a carbon fiber fuse. Those look like a lot of fun too. I haven't been able to find a source for them.

I have also been following Rusty's videos. I picked up the floss fuel tube trying technique and more info on bladders. I've never seen one I person, very glad to come by it.

Foamies aren't really commercially available. They're built by modelers and generally made on special request. I build my own as many others do. That being said, they're not as inexpensive as the Ukranian varieties. Many don't realize the time involved to build one. That being said, the cost of a .25 size foamie currently is about $85. A 1/2A cost around $65 and that's without shipping. While they're considerably smaller with a bit less material, the time is equally involved if not more.  A Czech company Mezjlik made one of my favorite 1/2A combat wings. They were  smaller than what's currently available and flew with a TD very nicely. Phil Cartier of Corehouse cuts Styrofoam wings and offers the Lil Hacker which is designed for a Black Widow. This foamie comes in a 2 pack and uses a lite ply fuse with a foam wing which slides into it. Not as good looking as a modern day wing but it certainly takes a beating. K-107 Lil Hacker $34.95 http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/