Cox Queen Bee .09

Jason_WI Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:59 pm

Everyone knows the Queen Bee is heavy and anemic for an engine this size. I had a spare Medallion .09 piston/cylinder set sitting around. There is no substitute for displacement.

The cylinder fits the Queen Bee crankcase. The problem is the crank pin on the Queen Bee is .133" and the .09 is .155".

I turned a brass bushing to fit the crankpin and now the fit is nice with the .09 piston on the .074 crank pin. There is a slight difference in the stroke between the .074 and the .09. I used a TD .09 head to make up for this. It has nice compression and should run.

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 30cb1f74e43e86e5ac802704649d35ee_zpscbdb7690

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 30cb1f74e43e86e5ac802704649d35ee_zpscbdb7690

Maybe I will run it tomorrow and tach it with a 7x3.5 prop and see what it does.

Looks the same on the outside except this cylinder doesn't have the top fin milled.

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 6ab778d59aa2e87ac06008f56c4ceaf2_zps3d44bab6

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 6ab778d59aa2e87ac06008f56c4ceaf2_zps3d44bab6

**Cribbs74** Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:17 pm

I would be interested in seeing the performance difference. Do you have another stock queen bee to compare with? I probably know the answer to that question... Very Happy

Jason_WI Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:22 pm

Yes I do but it's NIB. I can change it back to use the .074 piston/cylinder for comparison.

JPvelo Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:17 pm

I was going to do that with a tee dee .09 cylinder but didn't have a way around the conrod fit. You can also use a sportsman/Olympic spring starter on those, fits the muffler sleeve perfectly.

Jim

Cryhavoc Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:32 pm

Jason,
A few machining questions if you don't mind.

what tools did you use to make the bushing? I.e. Did you make a ream, tiny boring bit or is a numbered drill bit sufficient?

Is the bushing a press fit in the rod?

Thanks,
Mike

iamplanecrazy2 Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:29 am

I love this!
Will definitely have to build one.
I would like to know what type brass you used.

Jason_WI Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:13 pm

Not sure what the brass is as far as type. I just used something I had. This is just a test platform to see how it performs. If it would ever warm up I will test run it to see what type of performance it has. If it performs well I will definately use a brass rated for use as a bushing.

iamplanecrazy2 Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:43 pm

I'm not an expert by any means but the metal I recall most often associated with rod bushings is bronze.
Would that be better than brass?

**RknRusty** Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:46 pm

iamplanecrazy2 wrote:I'm not an expert by any means but the metal I recall most often associated with rod bushings is bronze.
Would that be better than brass?

I considered commenting about that, but withheld since that's way out of my field. When I was a copier technician the machines used lots of bronze bushings because, as I understood it, they absorb oil and so maintain lubrication very well.
Rusty

Jason_WI Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:28 pm

You guys are correct that bronze is what should be used. I know McMaster Carr has a selection of bronze round stock of different formulations.

Brass should be good enough for a test run.

ian1954 Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:34 pm

Phosphor bronze ideal for bearings but it is not easy to drill or machine. It tends to grab if you are not careful.

iamplanecrazy2 Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:18 am

ian1954 wrote:Phosphor bronze ideal for bearings but it is not easy to drill or machine. It tends to grab if you are not careful.

That is good to know.
I've got a Craftsman (Atlas) 6" lathe but have yet to get it set up and ready to use.
I ought to be shot for having let it sit on a shelf for as long as I have.

1/2A Nut Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:48 am

If the test with the brass tube shows promise if there is enough of us interested in doing the mod maybe you can fab up a batch of them out of bronze to pass out. I have a spare TD 09 and QB. I have flown the RC 09 impressive power and have flown the QB only gets moving on 6x3 / 6x4 / 5x5. Maybe take the .074 cylinder / piston and mod a TD 051 muh ah hah haa. Babe Bee

rat9000 Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:39 am

Jason whats your clearance between pin and bushing if its free to turn, o.k. Theres an old rule to check the clearance,if you have a way to check it.planecrazy bronze will impregnate oil very well,its a tough alloy,but I've seen brass in very old machinery,I'm going back to the 40s,its held up fine,it needs oiled,none of it is turning the rpms these little screamers do,so I'm not sure on the brass.

rat9000 Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:46 am

Rusty,Way off topic,I trashed a copier using wd -40 spraying it onto bearings when they started making nosie.

zeissman Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:40 pm

Jason_WI wrote:
snip>

I turned a brass bushing to fit the crankpin and now the fit is nice with the .09 piston on the .074 crank pin.

snip>

Maybe I will run it tomorrow and tach it with a 7x3.5 prop and see what it does.

Hey Jason,

Did you ever run this QB .09?
If so, how well did it run?
Did the brass hold up, or were you forced to switch to bronze?
Do you have any extra bushings available for sale?
If so, I'm sure many of us, myself included, would be interested in buying one or more from you.
Have you tried any other "hop ups" for the QB?

GallopingGhostler Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:00 pm

http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness

Brinell is the scale used to compare the different hardnesses of the metals described here:
Nickel Aluminum Bronze (Alloy #958) - This alloy is 79% Copper, 10% Aluminum, 4% Iron, 2% Manganese and 5% Nickel. This alloy is more durable than 100% copper, Red and Yellow Brass. Hardness is approximately 150-190.
Yellow Brass (Copper Alloy #865) - Yellow Brass, also considered a "Bronze", is 60% Copper, 33% Zinc, 2% Iron, 1.5% Aluminum, 1-5% Manganese, 1% Tin, .5% Nickel. Brinell Hardness of 100.

The brass being softer will tend to wear out quicker. Remember that automotive engine main and connecting rod bearings used to be made out of a soft metal called babbit? Similar in principal to the Testors McCoy engines and soft iron piston, I'd think using standard Cox fuel with minimum 20% oil with 10% Castor should be adequate. After all, the crankcase bushing is nothing more than the crankcase aluminum.

This is an interesting experiment, I'd be interested in the test results. It might be better to pressure fit the brass to the piston rod hole and let crank pin freely rotate in it. It might hold up better. It would overall be under compression versus under a mixture of tension and compression.

GallopingGhostler Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:14 pm

[quote="GallopingGhostler"]http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness

Brinell is the scale used to compare the different hardnesses of the metals described here:
Nickel Aluminum Bronze (Alloy #958) - This alloy is 79% Copper, 10% Aluminum, 4% Iron, 2% Manganese and 5% Nickel. This alloy is more durable than 100% copper, Red and Yellow Brass. Hardness is approximately 150-190.
Yellow Brass (Copper Alloy #865) - Yellow Brass, also considered a "Bronze", is 60% Copper, 33% Zinc, 2% Iron, 1.5% Aluminum, 1-5% Manganese, 1% Tin, .5% Nickel. Brinell Hardness of 100.

The brass being softer will tend to wear out quicker. Remember that automotive engine main and connecting rod bearings used to be made out of a soft metal called babbit? Similar in principal to the Testors McCoy engines and soft iron piston, I'd think using standard Cox fuel with minimum 20% oil with 10% Castor should be adequate. After all, the crankcase bushing is nothing more than the crankcase aluminum.

This is an interesting experiment, I'd be interested in the test results. It might be better to pressure fit the brass to the piston rod hole and let crank pin freely rotate in it. It might hold up better. It would overall be under compression versus under a mixture of tension and compression, which could work harden the brass to possibly prematurely fail.

706jim Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:42 pm

Brass will wear out quickly; bronze is what you want to use.

A clearance of about 0.002" would be fine.

O.S. ducted fan engines would survive high rpm's when the conrod lower end clearance was increased from (nearly nothing) to 0.002 to 0.003".

One thing to remember about babbit rod bearings is that they had a very short service life. 15000 miles on an engine back then was typical before the bearings were shot. Newer engines use a very thin layer of this material to increase durability.

GallopingGhostler Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:35 pm

706jim wrote:Brass will wear out quickly; bronze is what you want to use. A clearance of about 0.002" would be fine. O.S. ducted fan engines would survive high rpm's when the conrod lower end clearance was increased from (nearly nothing) to 0.002 to 0.003". One thing to remember about babbit rod bearings is that they had a very short service life. 15000 miles on an engine back then was typical before the bearings were shot. Newer engines use a very thin layer of this material to increase durability.

Not sure where you get the 15,000 mile mark, sounds very low and doesn't seem to typify overhaul intervals. I've never poured babbit bearings, estimates for say the Model T was more like 40,000 to 50,000 miles depended upon use or abuse.

http://www.carsandparts.com/Articles/Tech/How-To/how-to-pour-babbitt-bearings#

I replaced bearings in a 1967 Datsun PL411 1300 cc engine around 90,000 miles and in a 1968 Hino Contessa 1300 cc engine around 70,000 miles. These cars were 4 cylinders and rather buzzy at 65 MPH. Bearing inserts were of a soft material, easy to embed dirt and scratch with a finger nail.

Clearance would make sense as it is needed to provide an oil film for lubrication.

ian1954 Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:32 am

Babbit bearings are commonly referred to here as "White Metal" bearings. They are indeed very soft - can be scratched with a fingernail - but they are a combination of metals.

The base metal is usually tin - these gives it that softness - but it is effectively embedded with harder metals. In use, grooves are formed quite naturally that allow the passage of oil for lubrication. They form and reform. The tin can also melt with a lack of lubrication but still prevents the surfaces from mating.

This is one of those situations where it is hard to believe that such a predominantly soft metal can provide such service as a bearing. I have seen White Metal bearings in motor bike engines with an excess of 40,000 miles on the clock and in car engines with 60,000 miles clocked. They didn't need replacing.

706jim Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:10 am

The 15000 mile between rebuild number was provided by my father. He passed away years ago, so I can't get him to elaborate.
But this was when the lower end had a thick babbit bearing, unlike the modern shell bearings which are really a composite of softer and harder metals.
FWIW, he also mentioned that bearings would sometimes prematurely fail when a car was driven up a long hill as many engines at the time were splash lubricated. Under these conditions, the front engine bearings would starve for oil.

GallopingGhostler Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:09 am

ian1954 wrote:This is one of those situations where it is hard to believe that such a predominantly soft metal can provide such service as a bearing. I have seen White Metal bearings in motor bike engines with an excess of 40,000 miles on the clock and in car engines with 60,000 miles clocked. They didn't need replacing.

Perhaps I need to add an additional qualifier. Both those cars, the 1967 Datsun PL411 "Bluebird" and 1968 Hino Contessa (Japanese rear engine Renault - licensed by Renault)

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 1967_Datsun_PL411_Bluebird_Sedan_For_Sale_Side_1

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 1967_Datsun_PL411_Bluebird_Sedan_For_Sale_Side_1

Queen bee piston - Cox Queen Bee .09 Hino-Contessa-Australia-1965

were originally rental cars. They were heavily abused, appeared to not have their proper interval oil changes, were run hard. In Hawaii, around then the H-1 freeway was constructed with speeds of 65 MPH (107 kmh) from Honolulu westward to Nanakuli. These cars were running high RPM's at 65 MPH. Their sweet spot was around 45 MPH (74 kmh).

The Contessa being rear engine ran hotter than other engines. At oil change time of 625 miles (1,000 km), the oil was black. Back then, oil was rated SC or SD. (My latest oil bottle now says SN.)

They probably would have benefitted from an oil containing Castor, LOL. Going back to the OP's experiments with brass bearing insert, it amazes me that Cox did not go with the .09 sleeve and piston. At least in my opinion, the engine would have had more merit akin to the traditions of Leroy Cox of thinking out of the box as in his earlier engines.

This would have provided more power and would have made it a decent reedie to consider. Alas, it is no more and now the .074 is relegated to historic nostalgia collector status.

Jason_WI Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:07 am

Sorry I never got a chance to run this engine. I'll have to dig it out and give it a try. Been too busy with other hobbies.

dinsdale Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:01 am

ian1954 wrote:Phosphor bronze ideal for bearings but it is not easy to drill or machine. It tends to grab if you are not careful.

The stuff you want is "sintered bronze". You might pick it up under the name "oilite".

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