Production of cox engines today

nitroairplane Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:10 pm

It seems every thread I visit at the same time as Matt or Bernie turns to a conversation about production runs.
This is my fault because I always ask when know they are watching so as to get an answer so I thought I would make a thread devoted to our questions so if you have a question please put it here so we can all see it and hopefully Matt and Bernie will see it. And if anyone wants to share what cox products they have made or are thinking about making please do.

SuperDave Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:28 pm

Nature abhors a vacuum.

If there is sufficient demand for a product it will be produced. Considering the capital outlay to produce new Cox engines and parts in uncertain economic times is a risk that potential producers weigh with great gravity and rightfully so.

It's really about ROI. (return on investment). If the anticipated gain doesn't exceed the investment, why bother?

SuperDave

nitroairplane Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:58 pm

It is all very true but here must be some demand as I k ow of 4 sites that only sell cox products. So there must be some demand. And a higher performance .049 I am sure would go down well.

Carl Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:30 pm

yeah there are alot of places you can get new cox engines and parts but the electric plane market really put a dent into the cox engine market. besides there is a recession going on and people are slow to spend their money on unnessary junk like cox engines. kids today dont want to go out a watch a car go in a circle or fly a plane, they have their video games and the computer. the only ones who really want this stuff are guys that want their childhood back, a small number of kids whos parents kept them into the hobby, old guys who never grew out of it (me) and some engineers. there is a market for these engines, it is just limited.

SuperDave Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Carl is spot-on! We nostaglic old-timers are about the only people keeping the Cox demand alive. Time was when every kid had a Cox PT-19 if not several. They were the original "crash and trash" airplane but, to me, that was the ruination of model aviation because very few young people took it up for these reasons that Carl states.

We of the generation that grew up in the post-WWII era found the appeal of aviation almost unescapable as airplanes were major part of the Allied victory. May be it was my innocence but I became "hooked" for life. Now in my dotage I find them no less appealing.

The young need to be draw into the hobby if it is to survive. It'll be a tough sell as I'm discovering with my grand sons.

SuperDave

**Admin** Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:30 pm

Well, just today I went up to my local hobby shop to get some fuel tubing and I told one of the guys that stand behind the engine counter that Cox is back selling engines and I gave them the web addresses to both Matt and Bernie's sites. The old bugger behind the counter just said "yeah, we're out of that business, there is just no market for these anymore, If we ordered them, they would just sit here for another 20 years, sales started to slow in the early 90s and I can imagine that they are much slower if not stopped today and who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane". So in a nutshell, he basically said that they are not going to order them again. I'm sure if they get enough people in there asking for them, they'll probably order them but I'm sure no one else is thinking of them in the area. Someday they may bounce back just like a lot of other things (vinyl records, pop with real sugar....)

Jacob

SuperDave Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 pm

[quote who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob[/quote]

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

SuperDave Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:04 pm

Jacob:

I'm also a dedicated flyfisherman. I build my own rods and tie my own flies.

What does that tell you?

SuperDave

**Admin** Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:08 pm

SuperDave wrote:
who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

I do too! I'm just telling you what the guy at the hobby shop told me!

Carl Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Admin wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

I do too! I'm just telling you what the guy at the hobby shop told me!

actually that is all the fun of it, the fact that it is a actual mini internal combustion engine is just awesome! so what about the electric, i have flown it and it is nothing special. exactly glow heads dont burnout often, not as often as you have to buy a new electric motor becaue it burnt out or some new batteries because you overcharged them. today, your flying time is over when your spare battery runs out, back when, you could go all day on a drycell and a pint of cox flying power.

Jacob, do you live in a city? if so, there WILL be noise complaints plus the limited space and that is why no one buys them thus the hobby shop not ordering them.

SuperDave Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:52 am

Don't get me wrong.

I own and fly EP planes like my Hobbico Super-Cub 4 channel at a fairly remote location near Mt. Rainer, WA. My "Cubbie" has logged over 100 flights without incident.

Small nitro planes and engines are appealing to me for the reasons that I have stated PLUS they may be flown in much smaller locations located closer to home, may be transported easilly and bring back nostagic memories of times long past. At my age, that is very important to me.

SuperDave

nitroairplane Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:25 am

Carl wrote:
Admin wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

I get noise complaints from one neighbour only and then I say "your hobby may be arguing with your wife at all hours of the night in raised voices and mine is running engines that are smaller than 1cc, if you stop your arguin I'll take my engines elsewhere to run them. He just said"ggrr"
I like al the strings attaches to glow and diesel power like the smell the noise the prop and the pure enjoyment I get out of no following the croud.

I do too! I'm just telling you what the guy at the hobby shop told me!

actually that is all the fun of it, the fact that it is a actual mini internal combustion engine is just awesome! so what about the electric, i have flown it and it is nothing special. exactly glow heads dont burnout often, not as often as you have to buy a new electric motor becaue it burnt out or some new batteries because you overcharged them. today, your flying time is over when your spare battery runs out, back when, you could go all day on a drycell and a pint of cox flying power.

Jacob, do you live in a city? if so, there WILL be noise complaints plus the limited space and that is why no one buys them thus the hobby shop not ordering them.

nitroairplane Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:25 am

Carl wrote:
Admin wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

I get noise complaints from one neighbour only and then I say "your hobby may be arguing with your wife at all hours of the night in raised voices and mine is running engines that are smaller than 1cc, if you stop your arguin I'll take my engines elsewhere to run them. He just said"ggrr"
I like al the strings attaches to glow and diesel power like the smell the noise the prop and the pure enjoyment I get out of no following the croud.

I do too! I'm just telling you what the guy at the hobby shop told me!

actually that is all the fun of it, the fact that it is a actual mini internal combustion engine is just awesome! so what about the electric, i have flown it and it is nothing special. exactly glow heads dont burnout often, not as often as you have to buy a new electric motor becaue it burnt out or some new batteries because you overcharged them. today, your flying time is over when your spare battery runs out, back when, you could go all day on a drycell and a pint of cox flying power.

Jacob, do you live in a city? if so, there WILL be noise complaints plus the limited space and that is why no one buys them thus the hobby shop not ordering them.

nitroairplane Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:26 am

Carl wrote:
Admin wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
who wants to buy glow heads, fuel and make you plane messy when you could get a quiet rechargeable RC electric plane".

Jacob

I DO! I love the sound and the smell of nitro fumes. The incidence of buned out glo-heads is minimumal, besides they are less expensive than Li-Po's and chargers.

SuperDave

Guys:

I get noise complaints from one neighbour only and then I say "your hobby may be arguing with your wife at all hours of the night in raised voices and mine is running engines that are smaller than 1cc, if you stop your arguin I'll take my engines elsewhere to run them. He just said"ggrr"
I like al the strings attaches to glow and diesel power like the smell the noise the prop and the pure enjoyment I get out of no following the croud.

I do too! I'm just telling you what the guy at the hobby shop told me!

actually that is all the fun of it, the fact that it is a actual mini internal combustion engine is just awesome! so what about the electric, i have flown it and it is nothing special. exactly glow heads dont burnout often, not as often as you have to buy a new electric motor becaue it burnt out or some new batteries because you overcharged them. today, your flying time is over when your spare battery runs out, back when, you could go all day on a drycell and a pint of cox flying power.

Jacob, do you live in a city? if so, there WILL be noise complaints plus the limited space and that is why no one buys them thus the hobby shop not ordering them.

Cox International Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:27 am

As was correctly pointed out, it's all about Return on Investment.

To manufacture a run of, say, 1,000 TD 049 engines one is looking at a capital outlay of around $40,000. With the engines thus retail-priced at $100 it would presumably take somewhere around 5 years to sell them; and that is with a dose of optimism.

Transactional sales costs on eBay would run $15 per engine and $4 on proprietary websites, an average of $10 per engine. Form a 5-year ROI perspective, that is not really very appealing.

For the same $40,000 we can have somewhere around 20 to 40 other parts manufactured; with high margins, quick turnover and thus high ROI. For instance, we go through something like 5,000 crankcase gaskets a year.

Having said this, between Matt and ourselves, we have manufactured at least 5 or 6 dozen parts and accessories so far.

There are currently only 2 serious contenders in the world for Cox sales, Matt and ourselves. We have a pretty good grasp of Matt's sales volume. Add his to ours and that's about it for a market out there. It is a shrinking niche market with the average customer age in the mid-60's.

Make no mistake. The ubiquitous $20 engines that are being sold will run out in a few years and, should we ever manufacture any, brace for sticker shock of $40+ for the most basic engine.

Most modellers don't realize that a mould for even a small part, such as a propeller or carb body, costs about $8,000+ to make.

Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca

nitroairplane Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:50 am

That does not leave much room for prophet.
If i am ever super rich I will get some made and sell them
For what they cost to make.
But what are the chances of getting rich quick like that. I think I need some lotto tickets Smile

**RknRusty** Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:51 am

Dang, I just felt my credit card quiver in my wallet. Crying or Very sad

SuperDave Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:55 pm

To enlarge slightly on Bernie's comment I'd only add that with the present abundance of Coxes and the diminishing demand for them as fans age and fade away presents a discouraging prospect for potentail investors.

How many of you would invest if Bernie or Matt offered an IPO? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? (the sound of silence would be deafening)

SuperDave)

Carl Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:13 pm

SuperDave wrote:To enlarge slightly on Bernie's comment I'd only add that with the present abundance of Coxes and the diminishing demand for them as fans age and fade away presents a discouraging prospect for potentail investors.

How many of you would invest if Bernie or Matt offered an IPO? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? (the sound of silence would be deafening)

SuperDave)

i couldn't say that better, I have enough cox engines myself and if I need anymore, I can just go on ebay and get a $10 buy it now and clean it up instead of buying a 20 something dollar surestart from bernie or matt. that is good that they are here though, could you imagine what the parts market would be like with out them. i suppose that there are kids out there that like them but it is not like the 50s-60s 70s and 80s where every kid had to have some cox model. today if i ask someone my age about these engines and models, they know exactly what i mean. if i ask someone born in the mid late 80s about them, they just look confused. I'm sure many kids today that dont know cox stuff exist would like playing with those cox cars and planes but since you cant get one at walmart, they aint going to get it.

microflitedude Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:04 pm

Carl wrote:
i suppose that there are kids out there that like them but it is not like the 50s-60s 70s and 80s where every kid had to have some cox model. today if i ask someone my age about these engines and models, they know exactly what i mean. if i ask someone born in the mid late 80s about them, they just look confused. I'm sure many kids today that dont know cox stuff exist would like playing with those cox cars and planes but since you cant get one at walmart, they aint going to get it.

Ditto. I love them to death. I collect and fly them. If you mention Cox or .049 etc at my LHS, you will get a blank stare....

This thread makes you feel down.... :/ The age of Cox is over.

nitroairplane Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 pm

microflitedude wrote:
Carl wrote:
i suppose that there are kids out there that like them but it is not like the 50s-60s 70s and 80s where every kid had to have some cox model. today if i ask someone my age about these engines and models, they know exactly what i mean. if i ask someone born in the mid late 80s about them, they just look confused. I'm sure many kids today that dont know cox stuff exist would like playing with those cox cars and planes but since you cant get one at walmart, they aint going to get it.

Ditto. I love them to death. I collect and fly them. If you mention Cox or .049 etc at my LHS, you will get a blank stare....

This thread makes you feel down.... :/ The age of Cox is over.

I know a kid who flies micro rc planes when I showed him a little .010 powered plane I had he was speechless and did not believe it till I flew it.
He could not afford a .010 so I got Him a surestart and he loves it he wants to save up for a .010 I hope he gets one who knows he might be the next cox vendor when we are all gone.

SuperDave Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:14 pm

No more so than some other great ideas.

SuperDave

NeedNitro Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:24 am

Cox International wrote:As was correctly pointed out, it's all about Return on Investment.

To manufacture a run of, say, 1,000 TD 049 engines one is looking at a capital outlay of around $40,000. With the engines thus retail-priced at $100 it would presumably take somewhere around 5 years to sell them; and that is with a dose of optimism.

Transactional sales costs on eBay would run $15 per engine and $4 on proprietary websites, an average of $10 per engine. Form a 5-year ROI perspective, that is not really very appealing.

For the same $40,000 we can have somewhere around 20 to 40 other parts manufactured; with high margins, quick turnover and thus high ROI. For instance, we go through something like 5,000 crankcase gaskets a year.

Having said this, between Matt and ourselves, we have manufactured at least 5 or 6 dozen parts and accessories so far.

There are currently only 2 serious contenders in the world for Cox sales, Matt and ourselves. We have a pretty good grasp of Matt's sales volume. Add his to ours and that's about it for a market out there. It is a shrinking niche market with the average customer age in the mid-60's.

Make no mistake. The ubiquitous $20 engines that are being sold will run out in a few years and, should we ever manufacture any, brace for sticker shock of $40+ for the most basic engine.

Most modellers don't realize that a mould for even a small part, such as a propeller or carb body, costs about $8,000+ to make.

Bernie
www.coxinternational.c

>>> - What would the price be on 2 to 4000 engines??? Huh...

SuperDave Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:40 am

With the appropriate skills and the right equipment, two engines could be hand-crafted. The price of the engines would be comensurate with the cost of those items.

Production of 4K engines would require much more capital investment than the above. The efficencies of mass production* could be realized but only the cost of production would soar.

* Early Coxes feature die-cast crankcases. LeRoy Cox, to make production more efficient, went to extrusions to make the same part.

Guess why?

SuperDave

nitroairplane Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:46 am

speaking of small production runs i just contacted a factory about getting several cox .010 heavy duty cranks made.

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